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The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions
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Danielle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my brain has difficultly reading posts with over 1000 words.

I have a feeling we are heading back to the shitty script days of running from hotel to hotel with nothing actually happening.
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah


Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:
What kind of mistake are you thinking? Right now the Order seems so widespread and so populous that seems like it'd be impossible to take them apart.

I think knowing more about their structure would help with this. Like if there's a central communication center (I doubt they'd have this, but I'm just throwing out a suggestion) that they couldn't do without. Getting rid of it might leave all of the communes such independent of one another - which would be an improvement.
Well, I don't have an good examples right now, but everyone has a weakness right? Oppy could be mind-controlled too; perhaps Tachyon could do it. After all, she knows who Oppy is.

Also, someone one high-up in the Order could change coats, after being slighted in some way, which is basically what immortal was saying.

And, of course, as you were saying, immortal and Lurker, there most be holes in the infrastructure somewhere. If not, the Creators can "create" them...heehee.

Lurker and Vanilla, I want you to know I also value your input. Thanks for reading my post and responding, all who did.
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VanillaFlava
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

longlostposter wrote:
First of all, I think the vlog aspect can be maintained and still incorporated in a kind of third-party representation (Is this the magical window you are talking about, Lurker? Not really sure what you mean).


I am going to hazard a guess (since I am also not 100% sure), but I think Lurker refers to what is normally employed in TV and film. In those universes, there isn't actually a camera present to show us all these scenes unfolding, therefore we see those worlds through a 'magical window'. That correct?

The question is whether it would be good to introduce such a view point into LG15. So far, the show has been presented in a style best described as 'realism' (note this does not infer it has to be realistic by whatever standard) it is just presented as if everything was really happening.

I think this realism approach works quite well on LG15 and should be maintained. I would just wish for some additional contrievance, that would allow the audience to see private recordings as well. While this would subract a little from the realism, it would strongly add to the dramatic possibilities of the show. This might be just my personal preference, however, not sure. Opinions?

I have something I would like to add regarding the current state of the show. They really need to resolve older plot threads! Longlostposter mentioned Twin Peaks. I think that's a bad example. With TP people got upset that the whole 'Who killed Laura Palmer' hype was unraveled so unpredictably. However, this was mostly a marketing gadget, as per the creator team behind TP, the show was never really meant to be about that in the first place. The much maligned second season is actually a tremendously subversive piece of TV entertainment. That little thing off my chest, the creators need to start resolving some things. So many elements introduced 50 episodes ago, were made to be a big thing and then never mentioned again. It really makes investing into the show harder, not knowing there will ever be a pay-off. What happened to Aunt Alex? She really seemed like somebody the trio should have talked to some more, but no, we're lucky if she'll even get a mention in the future like so many other things. It's wearing thin, and just having frantic chase scene 67 will soon not cut it anymore.
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah


Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanillaFlava wrote:

The question is whether it would be good to introduce such a view point into LG15. So far, the show has been presented in a style best described as 'realism' (note this does not infer it has to be realistic by whatever standard) it is just presented as if everything was really happening.

I think this realism approach works quite well on LG15 and should be maintained.
You just convinced me you didn't read a word of my post.

VanillaFlava wrote:
I have something I would like to add regarding the current state of the show. They really need to resolve older plot threads! Longlostposter mentioned Twin Peaks. I think that's a bad example.
YOu know what they say about opinions.

Carry on.
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garnet
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Points of View Reply with quote

Part of the appeal which LonelyGirl15 holds over its viewers lies in the fact that it plays with the dramatic point of view.

In literature, there are four main points of view. Most of you already know this, but in this context, it bears a quick overview:

first person – told from the narrator’s perspective with his or her thoughts, feelings, and observations included

third person limited – an outside narrator with no real identity whose knowledge is limited in some respect

third person omniscient – an outside narrator who is able to see into the thoughts and feelings of others

dramatic – basically dialogue; one person talks, then another; there’s no narrator, but multiple perspectives

In literature, we also have to ask ourselves whether a narrator is reliable or not. (If it is first person, are they biased? Is something being left out?)

Most video and film is clearly dramatic in its perspective. LG15, however, begins from what seems like a first person perspective – Bree’s. Then, in the second video, we learn that she is not directly narrating; most of what she says is being filtered through Daniel’s editing – potentially adding an extra layer of bias. (Later, she seems to take on the editing process herself when she makes videos without Daniel’s help.) This is reminiscent of the novel Wuthering Heights where Mr. Lockwood tells the reader the story Nelly Dean told to him. They each have their own biases which the reader has to take into account.

Increasingly, Bree’s camera captures action between different characters. This variation adds a dramatic element. The story alternates between narrative and dramatic, increasingly leaning toward the dramatic, but still using the occasional narrative. This is not entirely unlike the old Saved by the Bell episodes where Zack Morris breaks the theatrical 4th wall and directly addresses his audience from time to time. This device is not totally low-brow either. Its origins lie in Shakespeare's asides.

Next, we are introduced to other first-person accounts – those of Gemma, Tachyon, Jonas, and others. This multi-perspective approach is consistent with the Postmodern theory that “there is no one truth” – only perspective. It is a technique which has been used by many authors including Wm. Faulkner in his novel The Sound and the Fury.

An additional twist on traditional narration occurs when we ask ourselves whether or not a narrator is reliable. In vloging, a narrator may or may not be reliable at different times depending on his or her intended audience. Bree says things at different points deliberately to trick Daniel and The Order. Determining the intended audience for a particular video can help the viewer to decipher a particular video’s meaning (see Tachyon’s early vids). The power which The Order holds over various characters also affects their reliability. This power has been seen in the videos where Bree and Daniel are influenced by The Order and speculated about in the accounts of Gemma, Aunt Alex, and others.

All of this is what makes LG15 unique! It is an amazing experiment in the narrative form. Still, it is a messy one with many flaws.

This post is getting rather lengthy, so I'll pause here. More to come . . .
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Cleo
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Why English majors love LG15 Reply with quote

Thank you Garnet for articulating precisely why I like LG15 so much! It is a bit like a cinematic Faulknerian novel, which has remarkable potential to challenge its viewers to interpret the visual text in different ways.

I had never thought it completely through until your post, Garnet, but having visual characters film and edit their own stories in video is very similar to having literary characters narrate their own stories in writing. Obviously there's a slight difference in that we never have to account for the reality of Benji Compson from The Sound and the Fury actually sitting down and writing out his story, since the character "Benji" never published his stories in character the way that the character Bree did.

I'll go off the literary deep end and compare this in-character-publishing aspect of LG15 to the framing devices of an 18th c epistletory novel like Pamela or Evelina, in which the novelist typically writes an introduction claiming to have found a collection of letters (which are, in reality, fiction) that tell the story without the aid of a narrator. I guess Blair-Witch was the first to copy this cinematically. Those novels were pretty crappy about maintaining any sense of reality, because the characters would write things into their journals "Oh no, he's breaking down the door now! He's about to ravish me!" and the like...stuff you'd never write down in the moment. Film seems to bypass some of these concerns. LG15 is getting closer to this epistletory format with the new private video function, as 18th century characters could never write an open letter to everybody. Now characters can craft videos to more specific intended audiences.

Switching to traditional cinematic story-telling would halt a great deal of the remarkable innovation of this series. Still, I think the fact that fans are proposing this switch speaks well of the characters that the creators and actors have developed. People actually care about Bree, Daniel, and Jonas, so any frustration with the unique story-telling devices simply stems from viewers' genuine interest in the story.
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Magesa
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I wish to congratulate everyone who posted here. There are some truly excellent posts here.

First, in terms of whether the Order can actually be toppled or not:

Perhaps I read too much science fiction, but these operations can be toppled, just with some inside help. It seems to me that immortal1 was describing how while the Order seems completely evil to us now, with a little human development we could see how the compassion of the Order, or just of certain members, could be used to turn them into double agents. Alex of Bree's mother would be an excellent starting point -- dig into the guilt in Alex or Bree's mom, and gain an inside voice into the operation. Then they could map out the climate of the Order, including its weaknesses. Then they can act.

I'm not saying the Bree, Daniel, and Jonas, three teenagers, are supposed to single-handedly topple and destroy such a huge operation. I'm saying that they should simply topple the dominoes. Beaurcracy and curroption are always present in such large operations, and if Bree and her friends can simply FIND it and then somehow light the fuse (I like the idea of fake documents by Tachyon) then the Order could topple itself.

In the 19th Century novel The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas, Edmond Dantes is betrayed by his friends and thrown in prison. After 14 years he escapes, filled with a thirst for revenge. However, he doesn't just want to kill his now affluent betrayers -- he wants to completely destroy their lives, without them ever suspecting him until he wishes to be revealed. Now, Edmond Dantes (now the Count of Monte Cristo) is brilliant, learned, and rich, but his basic methods could be applied to one with less resources. In the case of one of his betrayers, he discovers the malevolent thoughts of the man's wife. He slightly encourages them and gives her access to poison. She then does the dirty work, killing many people and thoroughly ruining her husband's life. He goes mad when his entire world is destroyed. The count also attacks from multiple angles -- his family dies, and then he finds out the murderer only after it is too late, and the murderer is his only family left. His illegitimate son reveals who he is at the court the same day, at this destroys the man.

So, Bree and her friends don't need to be the Count of Monte Cristo. But if they turn, say, Bree's mother against her own cause, soemthing could come of that. Or if the Order is having an internal struggle over Bree, she could probably escalate that into a war. The count only accomplished what he did after gathering a lot of information -- that's what Bree needs to do. And it wouldn't be totally rejected here either!

EDIT: To add that this would require a few things changing in the series. First, in order to have weaknesses the Order needs to be somewhat human, so we need some human faces. Second, to say that so far, Bree and her friends haven't amassed a quarter of the info they would need to do this. Third, to say that Bree and her friends take two steps back for every step forward -- there are too many new mysteries all the time! Bascially, the show would need to stick to one idea for longer than it currently does. Finally, this show seems like it will continue indefinitely -- so therefore so will the Order. Anyone see a problem? Maybe they topple the first Order but there are still Order guys hiding out, ready to sabatoge them?

Okay, I realize this post is getting long, but I also wanted to address the concern of the "magical windows":

Lurker, I completely understand what you mean about not wanted "magic windows." I just feel that now we have to choose the lesser of the two evils. Either we have slight suspension of disbelief -- and I do believe it is slight -- or we are unable to get the full drama of many of the points of view. As Garnet so eloquently pointed out, much of the fascination of this story lies in the dramatic POV. Private transmissions don't assume that there is an invisible TV camera watching -- it is just like a vlog, just without the added restriction of having to talk to please everyone else. I think what VanillaFlava means by "personal diaries" is to simply have people post normal vlogs, but to not have to restrict what they say because anyone could watch it. Not only could each faction safely post plans, but the characters could talk freely about their personal struggles. This would require some suspension of disbelief -- couldn't the Order hack it? But I think that it's worth it.

(I'm sorry if I didn't interpret your "magic windows" idea right, I'm not entirely sure what you were getting at.)

Thank you all again for the excellent posts!
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VanillaFlava
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, some fresh perspectives! Welcome onboard guys! Thanks for some very well thought-out posts. I was beginning to think the discussion had run its course here.

I agree with your statements about the potential of this narrative form. The post-modern reference is interesting, but I do not think it has been really realised on the show much. One recent example would be the party, which was one of the more enjoyable moments of late.

So far, I see much potential in LG15, but, as you also have said, many flaws and missed opportunities. This is, of course, an experiment, and much of the potential not being realised is due to them maybe experimenting too much. The show has gone through many different kinds of narrative approaches and perspectives, and it really hasn't found it's 'groove' yet, I think.

Looking at literature, much of what we are seeing here, has already been long established and tried for great effect. I think one pertinent example would be Bram Stoker's 'Dracula', which is presented in its entirety as a series of diary entries, telegrams, and voice recording transcripts. In a sense LG15 seems a little like the 21st century video equivalent. There is one important difference, of course. Dracula (and similar narrative approaches mentioned earlier) are, by necessity, always presented recounting past events. It is always exposition, even though Stoker cleverly disguises it in a dramatic form. LG15 on the other hand usually documents things as they happen, aiming for a certain 'realism', although this is of course really a deceit, as the act of editing and the necessity of exposition for events not shown is ever present.

I do not think the show should switch to a pure dramatic presentation, because really, then it would be removed to tried and tested short-form drama. I suppose, a recent example would be the new show 'Prom Queen', which in its debut episode clearly establishes itself as drama.

I do wish for the show to stick to one format over another for longer periods of time, however, as some of the recent material has really come out quite disjointed for an audience who does not also involve themselves heavily in the secondary material (i.e. forums, other video posters, etc.).

Since the c's have also expressed a definite desire to integrate ARG elements into the show, a certain direction is almost required, and when it is not followed one or the other audience segment suffers in enjoyment. I do very much like the 'archaeological storytelling' that comes with ARGs, certain games, some literature, and possibly a fully realised LG15.

However, for that to happen, I think at the very least, the format the show is presented in needs to change. The recent labeling of episodes as 'private' is a (somewhat clunky) attempt to move into that direction. Much better would be a whole new style of presentation like I tried to outline earlier.

The precarious balancing, of course, would come into still presenting a show that could be followed linearly by a casual audience while at the same time presenting enough branching material to satisfy the archaeologist viewership, which I think is the majority of the hardcore forum and ARG crowd.

I for one, would happily go along with the more dangerous experimental approach, because frankly, I can have straight-up drama everywhere else. Everytime the show tried to compromise, it fell a little flat, I believe, for reasons of resources, script, time, or whatever may have been the case.

Finally, looking at the most recent episodes, I would wish, that the story sticks to a particular event and explore it in a little more detail, than just give us one-episode mega events, only to have them dissolved on the next clip. But that would probably lead off-topic here.

EDIT: Also off-topic, but to take back my complaint above. A big yay! for Aunt Alex Redux! More please! I really enjoy being proven wrong by the c's on this one!

Thanks again for the great posts guys, keep them coming!
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Cleo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: More dueling cameras Reply with quote

I agree that the party was one of the best video sequences lately. I also enjoyed the _Back To the Future II_ feel of the video where Jonas was filming in the bushes behind Daniel filming the original post. If the simultineity of those films had led to some bigger revelation, it would've been even cooler. More of those dueling cameras (and perspectives) would be a great way to exploit this new story-telling medium.
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garnet
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Back on track Reply with quote

So, we got our dramatic irony. The private vids let the viewer know what happened to the trio during the "missing days" before they were able to remember it. But, now in "Confrontation," Bree and Daniel know that they were drugged, and even some details about the man who kidnapped them -- something about some drugs and his strength. I guess maybe this is something that was revealed in the ARG because I sure didn't know about it.

We also got the narrative experience back -- at least for awhile. . . Jonas and Daniel talking to the camera in "Missing Days," then a real confessional from Bree in "Losing my Religion." There was even a little science in "Spring Break Sucks." This is the lonelygirl we know and love!

Next time, they should get Daniel reading a magazine in the background . . . just for old time's sake. . . maybe a little P*Monkey, ya know?

It finally feels like the plot is moving again too. We know the name of Bree's religion, and Alex is definitely Order. I'm glad they kept Alex too. We needed another female character besides just Bree -- I mean, Bree's great and all, but the show needs balance.

Speaking of, I agree that some of the old plot lines really need to be resolved. We need to know if Gemma's really dead or not. And is Tachyon ever coming back? I hate to say it, but I think I'd be just as happy if she didn't. I'd rather see her pass the torch on to Bree and disappear. She was useful in rescuing Daniel, but that training camp was just weird. I know I'm probably going to get attacked for saying this, but I'm finding it hard to invest in a character who says so little. We're not talking about a Vera or a Merris here -- this is a major part of the story.

Humm . . . I think that's all for now.
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chershaytoute
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garnet, you might want to read in the"Beast Chat" part of the "Everyone's a Character (in-character interaction)" area - in the thread called "We're Ok - But could use your help", Daniel mentions the fact that they have vague memories of drug packaging, bottles, syringes...and parts of the names of some of the drugs. Forum members helped him by coming up with what the drugs were and what they are/can be used for.
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garnet
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. That helps.
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immortal1
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magesa wrote:
First, in terms of whether the Order can actually be toppled or not:

Perhaps I read too much science fiction, but these operations can be toppled, just with some inside help. It seems to me that immortal1 was describing how while the Order seems completely evil to us now, with a little human development we could see how the compassion of the Order, or just of certain members, could be used to turn them into double agents. Alex of Bree's mother would be an excellent starting point -- dig into the guilt in Alex or Bree's mom, and gain an inside voice into the operation. Then they could map out the climate of the Order, including its weaknesses. Then they can act.


A Fifth Column element is something I had in mind. But do they really need to even topple the Order? Perhaps they could help put people into roles of leadership that would take a more favorable position on their situation? I think there is a lot of political intrigue to be had. I've explored a little of that here Dr Immant: Traditionalists vs. Reformists It seems maybe some of these elements are currently being played out.
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