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Kasdeja
Hymn of One

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:31 am Post subject:

He pushed it...he took what was there and accepted Pagan rituals (he wasn't much of a true, believing christian until his death bead) partly because it's easier to make everyone follow one religion if you let them keep their current practices. He didn't write the texts in the bible, though. But I get what you are saying.

Nora Volkova
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 332

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:34 am Post subject:

LC wrote:

Kasdeja wrote:

Shoot, some people say Catholics aren't Christians...even though it's about the oldest sect. I chalk it up to, you are Christian if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But, that...like the bible, is so ambiguous and open to interpretation, lol. Laughing

I agree with this...
But I think that Catholics only believe that they are the oldest sect but really the early Christians (first couple hundred years after christ) didn't segregate themselves into groups or denominations... not sure when catholicism started[/i]

Oh, actually the early Christians were *incredibly* factionalized. I believe current scholarship is that the various Gospels (there were upwards of 40, I think) evolved as the traditions of disparate groups, reflecting their individual communities' concerns. Certainly the Pauline letters reveal that as Paul was going about trying to (with a certain success, perhaps) establish himself as an authority to different groups, he was encountering a number of different traditions which intepreted the early Christian messages and themes in ways he didn't agree with.
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CALL BORIS, DANIEL

tannhaus
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:36 am Post subject:

LC wrote:

I'm not saying that he "created Catholocism", I just meant that he started a sect of Christianity that became catholocism-- he kind of pushed it in that dirrection.

You can go even closer to that though...the Pauline Christians made alliances with the Romans if I remember correctly.

LC
Suspiciously Absent

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:41 am Post subject:

Kasdeja wrote:

He didn't write the texts in the bible, though.

I don't understand why you think I said this???

Kasdeja
Hymn of One

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:42 am Post subject:

I didn't...

sororyzbl
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 317

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:51 am Post subject:

Sheikh Gomelez wrote:

No offense intended to the Typhonians in the audience. Embarassed

Yeah. You better throw them a bone....

TOOL RULES!!!!!!

LC
Suspiciously Absent

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:52 am Post subject:

Nora Volkova wrote:

LC wrote:

Kasdeja wrote:

Christians in each city that the disciples had ministered to and converted, grouped together and as a body they were discipled by other believers through letters and by disciples who would come and stay with them for periods of time. That is why the books in the new testement after Acts are named after people in cities "Ephesians" because it was addressed to the Christians in Ephesus, "Corinthians" because it was addressed to the Christians in Corinth. I don't think it was neccesarily that they were trying to break off into new branches but just that they were all so young in their beliefs and seperated from other believers by such great distances that they couldn't help but have differences. The group of Christians in each city had certain issues that needed to be addressed due to influences from the native beliefs of each city. I don't think we're dissagreeing here, just saying it in different ways. I've never heard of Pauls letters reffered to as "Pauline", but I guess that's just a scholarly/secular way to refer to them.

C'mon though, I want to figure out the LG15 ceremony! I've had way to many christianity related debates in my life and really didn't intend to start this tangent! sorry!

Last edited by LC on Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Sheikh Gomelez
Thor's Hammer

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1237
Location: The Garden of Forking Paths, south of Viriconium.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:54 am Post subject:

Kasdeja wrote:

He pushed it...he took what was there and accepted Pagan rituals (he wasn't much of a true, believing christian until his death bead) partly because it's easier to make everyone follow one religion if you let them keep their current practices. He didn't write the texts in the bible, though. But I get what you are saying.

Disney certainly did push it. One suspects he had an agenda. Fairy Godmothers, Horned Kings, Mickey Mouse wearing a wizard's star-and-moon hat and making brooms act of their own accord, and seven dwarves, i.e. nature spirits, lending material and moral support to a monarchist who's living in the woods. Not to mention the animal-to-human transformations. And let's not forget that the insidious Oswald the Lucky Rabbit was a prototype for Mickey. We all know where these things lead...

I'm not so sure Disney became a Christian on his deathbed, though. There are persistent rumors about Disney's body being frozen with future resurrection in mind. In at least one of the tale's variations, Uncle Walt's head was preserved using cutting-edge cryopreservation technology developed by researchers who posed as "imagineers" for his company. The story reminds me of the Templars worshipping that severed head, and remembering Schonfield's theory that Baphomet-- the name of the Templar's beloved idol-- is Atbash cipher for sophia, "wisdom" so-called, gives me bone-aching chills.

Oh, wait. You're talking about Constantine.

Sorry. I saw the pronouns and thought you were agreeing with me. Wink

_________________
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tension, apprehension,
And dissension have begun.

LC
Suspiciously Absent

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:57 am Post subject:

Kasdeja wrote:

I didn't...

Sorry! I thought you did! Smile

Whew, I think I'm remembering why I usually stay away from online forums. Sorry for the confusion

tannhaus
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject:

LC wrote:

I've never heard of Pauls letters reffered to as "Pauline", but I guess that's just a scholarly/secular way to refer to them.

No...you had several different sects of Christianity...that believed totally different things. The Pauline Christians were the followers of Paul. They were by no means the only Christians.

You had the gnostics...who among themselves had several sects. The Gospel of Eve, for instance, from what we can tell (the catholic church tried to burn all the gnostic gospels) indicated the following. This is from a reference to it:

"The Gospel of Eve is known only from one or two short quotations from the great heretic-hunter Epiphanius (310/20 - 402), bishop of Salamis. 'And the pitiful pair, having made love, then proceed to hold up their blasphemy to heaven, the woman and the man taking the secretion from the male into their own hands and standing looking up to heaven. They hold the impurity in their hands and pray . .and say 'We offer you this gift, the body of Christ.' And then they consume it, partaking of their shamefulness, and they say: 'This is the body of Christ and this is the Pasch for which our bodies suffer.' . . When they fall into a frenzy among themselves, they soil their hands with the shame of their secretion, and rising, with defiled hands pray stark naked, as if through such an action they were able to find a hearing with God."

Harrison continued "Jesus himself, they said, was the first teacher of these practices. He took Mary (probably Magdalene) to a mountain, took a woman out of his side and had sex with her, then drank his own sperm saying: 'Thus we ought to do, that we may live.' The sect even claimed that when Jesus at the Last Supper spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he was referring to this practice."

Incidentally, this is where Thelema gets the practice of including blood/sexual fluids in the eucharist during the Gnostic Mass...from early christian practices.

Early Christianity differed even more than modern Christianity.

Hmmmm
Suspiciously Absent

Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject:

Good discussion, guys. Hey, Sheikh (sorry to perpetuate the OT-ness) I see your point about the King Stag etc. in Bambi -- who/what is Thumper supposed to symbolize? I have only a little background (cough MistsofAvalon) in this stuff. _________________ www.thesnarkpit.com (not LG -related -- just a pleasantly snarky gossip site)

Nora Volkova
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 332

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject:

LC wrote:

Nora Volkova wrote:

LC wrote:

Kasdeja wrote:

Ah, okay, I see where you're going with that. Yeh, we aren't disagreeing after all.
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Sheikh Gomelez
Thor's Hammer

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 1237
Location: The Garden of Forking Paths, south of Viriconium.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject:

Hmmmm wrote:

Good discussion, guys. Hey, Sheikh (sorry to perpetuate the OT-ness) I see your point about the King Stag etc. in Bambi -- who/what is Thumper supposed to symbolize? I have only a little background (*cough* MistsofAvalon) in this stuff.

Bambi undergoes the time-honored tradition of male bonding with Thumper. I'm not implying anything sordid; I'm saying that Bambi is a young male spending time with and learning from another male. If I'm not mistaken, rabbits are common fertility symbols and are associated with the Vernal Equinox. According to some anthropologists and cultural historians, the reproductive abilities of rabbits gave rise to the Easter Bunny tradition and to certain associations with springtime. It's in this context that we should consider the movie's characters. Thumper's "smelling the flowers" suggests that, as the characters grow, they will find mates and be fruitful and multiply-- like March Hares. Initially, Thumper demonstrates a greater interest in flowers than does the rather retiring Bambi... but as the narrative progresses, Bambi grows horns, metaphorically and finally literally, taking the place of his dead father as Horned King, a la the fertility deity Cerunnos. As befits a narrative featuring anthropomorphized beasts, the film places its mythic elements in a context of biological and ecological determinism. The nature and structure of dominance hierarchies, the impact of various catastrophes on such hierarchies, and the restoration of balance are recurrent themes in the film. To survive, Bambi must become like his father, but he must also adapt to a changing world. Bambi's developing abilities of articulation, including expression of need, and his actions when confronted with danger-- he no longer needs his parents, he can take care of himself and others-- results in his success as a dominant male. The film's conclusion implies that, having found mates, both characters will be fruitful and multiply-- like March Hares. Note the film's emphasis on changing seasons and maturation, both in terms of flora and fauna... and the emphasis on death as one aspect of biological life cycles.

The King is dead. Long live the King.
_________________
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tension, apprehension,
And dissension have begun.

Hmmmm
Suspiciously Absent

Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject:

Cool. Thanks. _________________ www.thesnarkpit.com (not LG -related -- just a pleasantly snarky gossip site)

sororyzbl
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 317

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

tannhaus wrote:

[i]"The Gospel of Eve is known only from one or two short quotations from the great heretic-hunter Epiphanius (310/20 - 402), bishop of Salamis. 'And the pitiful pair, having made love, then proceed to hold up their blasphemy to heaven, the woman and the man taking the secretion from the male into their own hands and standing looking up to heaven. They hold the impurity in their hands and pray . .and say 'We offer you this gift, the body of Christ.' And then they consume it, partaking of their shamefulness, and they say: 'This is the body of Christ and this is the Pasch for which our bodies suffer.' . . When they fall into a frenzy among themselves, they soil their hands with the shame of their secretion, and rising, with defiled hands pray stark naked, as if through such an action they were able to find a hearing with God."

That's hot. touto esti to poterion to haimatos mou, indeed.

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