Lonelygirl15

Kasdeja · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:33 am Post subject:

Thank you for apologizing.
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Linc · Casual Observer Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 44

Okay, since the start of this I've been trying to keep myself from posting. On a number of occasions I've actually written out a good five hundred words on the subject, only to delete it on second thought.

Look, aran, let me just say I love the UK. I do. Some of my closest friends are scattered throughout there in London, Nottingham, and Manchester. I even love UK television. One of my favorite shows is Spooks (MI5 in America), and Rome is another one by the BBC.

Within the first series (season to us Yanks) of Spooks, people were kidnapped, abortion clinics were bombed, and a woman died after having her head dunked in a boiling pot of some mixture I can't recall, only to be shot in the head to silence her screaming. (Note: we were there viewing when it happened; but were watching reaction shots when the violence. We listened to the entire violent scene and her crying silenced.) In the second series, we see a child strap dynamite to his chest and right when we believe he's going to change his mind, he hits the plunger and kills himself and the man trying to convince him not to do it.

The entertainment business, in many respects, has evolved. There are a number of shows that are mindless, sure. But one of the most popular shows on American TV today is Without a Trace, which deals in missing persons. It's a show almost exclusively about kidnapping.

Criminal Minds, a show that's even more popular, has had many cases where children are victims of serial murderers.

Spooks, in comparison, are ones who are not above doing the kidnapping themselves.

The point I'm making, my friend, is that producers are going to deal with scenarios that are uncomfortable to some. It increases awareness, it hits people's buttons, it gets them to think. But to say that they should not do it is silly. In fact, it's dangerous. Social progress has always occurred with the assistance of the entertainment industry.

Many people call it propaganda when the government tries to do it.

For the longest time, sex was taboo. Never talked about sex. When a couple on TV had a kid, the kid would just show up! When Albert Kinsey released his book on sex, people publicly despised it and privately read it like crazy. It wasn't until after television began to show men and women sleeping in the same bed before people started to open up about such things.

Certain things happen too close to the heart of the country for a show to continue on about. For example, the UK has this kidnapping thing. For us, it was Nine-Eleven. Did you know that Twenty-Four's first season originally had an airplane being used as a weapon, with Islamic fundamentalists as the ultimate culprit? Instead, the professional just used the plane's escape hatch as an exit point and the plane crashed naturally. Then they brought in Dennis Hopper and used the Kosovo crisis as the backdrop to the story. Terrorism, at the time, was a very hard thing to deal with in America.

During that time, the UK? They had no trouble with it. Why? Because they were used to the IRA attacks. Note that "used" does not mean "desensitized," and certainly not "tolerant."

But guess what? Second season - a little bit of time later - Twenty-Four went right back into it, this time with Islamic fundamentalists whom had acquired a nuclear bomb. Sure, first season was too soon - we're talking the show started after Nine-Eleven, but before the invasion of Afghanistan - but after the shock wore off, and people began to pick up the pieces, the show went right into it!

And let me tell you this - the UK show that canceled its plot? Soap opera. This is miles away from a primetime drama. Soap operas do not deal with hard issues in a way that's reflective. Rather, they deal with plots written that very day. So yes, they canceled the plot. It's not that hard to do it, because there's little invested interest in the script. People watch soap operas to see the sort of complex and completely unrealistic situations characters find themselves in that day. It has nothing to do with characters or politics, it's just watching absurdity in motion. And everyone knows it.

So yeah, they cut it. Because they know it'd be making light of it. On primetime? Won't happen. And if you think it would, in UK or America, you my friend are dreaming. And need to take a good long look at the history of film and television and its role in society.

And I'm done.
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milowent · Devoted Fan Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 883

i think kidnapping is very serious, of course. i also think this is a fictional story. The "law and order" shows show the grisliest crimes all the time (especially the SVU: Special Victims Unit series, it all heinous sex and child related crimes), and "Without A Trace" is a whole series about kidnappings and other people who disappear.

In telling a story, the creators have opened a very interesting door here. CuriousGeorge wrote this about it: "At this point I can only hope that the "Theme" of LG has become an example of what happens when well intentioned folks resort to "bad" deeds in pursuit of, what they believe to be, some kind of beneficial reason."

Now, that would be a pretty twisted yet intelligent development. But look at this comment bree posted at youtube:

"lonelygirl15
This isn't illegal. We are helping her so she doesn't have to do the ceremony!!! Sometimes drastic times call for drastic measures."

bree is over the edge. obviously kidnapping was not necessary, but bree thought it was. Julia banging on the window tied while they are vlogging was really sick (If this was real life, which i don't really think about it as, anymore)

Edit to add: Linc posted many good thoughts i agree with above while i typed my post.
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Renegade · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject:

But these "law and order shows" showing kidnappings all the time is exactly the point - it's part of their story, of their universe, of their concept - iow: it makes sense. When ever did Bree and Daniel show any kind of hint that they could just walk into a suburban house and drag out a crying, screaming child?

I'm not gonna repeat myself, I put it down earlier here, I just wanted to post to voice my support for TheeBerean - The Creators really fucked this one up.

And about all this "maybe showing them not being better than the Order is the point" talk - not only would a kidnapping be unnecessary to show that, but, as far as I remember, we didn't ever see OpAphid dragging around crying teenagers. Everybody kidnapped by the bad guys was always drugged. Sure, it's the same crime, but visually, it makes a big difference if you show "Danny B" all drugged up talking smacked after the kidnapping, or Daniel actually kidnapping a crying girl. And video is a visual medium, after all. Also, it makes a big difference if you show the bad guys, from who you expect nothing else, kidnap somebody, or if you show a girl who used to talk to stuffed animals devising a plan to, and talking her best friend into kidnapping someone and then blogging in front of the helpless, tied up victim.

I mean, seriously - cut the past two videos together, add some child porn in the end, and it'll look like a child rapist blog. It's that bad.

Don't believe me? Look at it:

If you didn't know where this was from, would you doubt for one second if anybody told you it was from some pervert's kiddy porn stash?

To say it with an old South Park title: Child abduction is not funny. And it's not entertaining, either. Whoever found it enjoyable to hear her screaming for help while she was dragged away by an intruder in her home is a fucking pervert.

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Kasdeja · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

No, renegade...these last few posts weren't defending the kidnapping persay...just addressing another poster's concerns due to the UK child being kidnapping.
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Renegade · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject:

That does not change my point. If you read my original post, you'll see that I complained about the missing story coherence there, too. The contrast to law and order shows is just a good example.

Independent from how stupid, unnecessary and graphic the abduction was, Daniel kidnapping teenage girls just doesn't fit the way he was written so far, and whoever wrote him that way for this episode should take some extra classes in continuity.

Had he gradually turned bad, fine. Had the Order "triggered" him, fine.
But kidnapping children out of the blue, just because Bree says so? I don't buy it.
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Kasdeja · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject:

I'm not arguing with you...just giving you the reason those were referenced...there are two completely different arguments going on here.
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Renegade · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject:

Bah, previous post was edited while Kasdeja posted.
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Kasdeja · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject:

It's o.k. I hate this new twist and agree with you on many points. Wink

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milowent · Devoted Fan Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 883

Would it make you feel better if you learned that the actress who plays julia was 18? (I don't know her age, BTW)

Bree was supposed to be 16 when this all started.

Consider these scandalous plot developments:

- bree's dad starts injecting her with unknown shots.

- bree's parents are taken away by the order and bree is left alone

- mysterious people stalk bree

- bree and daniel become homeless and eat garbage

- daniel is kidnapped and drugged

- daniel was rescued by offering bree for daniel, and then exploding some device in an elevator. This involved help from Tachyon flying in from Fiji.

- they tied up jonas because they suspected he was in the order.

- they took jonas to the vet when he seriously cut his hand

- all three are kidnapped and drugged in vegas, and held for days

- jonas pulls a gun on aunt alex

- daniel gets drunk every day for awhile.

- they kidnap julia to save her from the order

----

it doesn't really seem outrageous in context.
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Renegade · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:

Yeah, that illustrates my point quite well.

Because, if you look closely, you'll see that, from all the things listed, the only "bad" ones done by BD&J are:

- jonas pulls a gun on aunt alex
- daniel gets drunk every day for awhile.
- they kidnap julia to save her from the order

everything else was done by forces who were designed to be evil - you expect them to do amoral things. Bree tying up Jonas may not have been nice, but she assumed she was defending herself - and defending yourself is a much different thing than breaking into someone's house and dragging her out.

Now, for the three that are left, you'll see that all them were protested just as this one was. Numerous people complained how it was stupid and illogical that Jonas had a gun all of a sudden, and how he behaved with it. Numerous people complained about how Daniel's drinking wasn't funny anymore, but overused and close to an addiction. And, right now, numerous people complain about how, all of a sudden, B&D decide they wanna go capture innocent children.

It just. doesn't. make. sense. No, it's not the first time Bad Things happen in this series. No, it's not the first time somebody got kidnapped. And no, it's not the first time BD&J made unwise decisions.

But it's the first time The Creators displayed child abduction as a perfectly reasonable decision, and used it for entertainment purposes.

(And no, for that, it is irrelevant how old the actress is - she is displayed as being a child that's getting kidnapped. As long as she's believable in her role, that's all that matters for the message being sent.)
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EmiB · Casual Observer Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 43

Linc · Casual Observer Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 44

Just to clarify my post - I am not going to argue its merit as a vehicle for the story. As a filmmaker in the making I make a point to not criticize those who're scratching in the business from the fringe unless they ask me my opinion personally or their entire work is complete.

Not to say that those watching the show should silence themselves - on the contrary, it's their job to speak out. I just know that it would be disingenuous on my part to say, "they should have done [insert]," when in my own trials I have had to agree to a lesser storyline because resources or circumstances wouldn't allow for the better.

My novel-length post is in response to those trying to suggest that it is immoral to do it this way. If your argument is about whether or not it resonates with you and is good for the story, then you can ignore my post.
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milowent · Devoted Fan Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 883

i did forget all of daniel's breaking and entering crimes.

----

renegade, you make a good point that those other actions you excerpt were also loudly protested. its because we identify with BD&J.

bree's internal moral belief seems to be that this kidnapping is necessary not in self-defense, but in "defense of others." That can be a legal defense, but not under these facts, not even remotly. And the risk of harm in a "defense of others" claim needs to be very imminent (like in the next few seconds).

BD&J really have no clue about whether Julia really is the ceremony girl, and when the ceremony is.

but i fully expected that julia will either be let go, and join the gang and post a vlog of her own about it soon. bree et al. will apologize, and will jet off to somewhere else. and more foosball, probably some of that too.
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Renegade · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:

And that'll be the worst about it...that they just go kidnap a girl, and everything will be fine in the end. No cops, no judge, no prison. "Thanks for kidnapping me, let's be friends." What kind of message are The Creators sending with that?
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