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Beckers
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Posts: 1131

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

did you just read your first book or something?
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Rekidk
Casual Observer


Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beckers wrote:
ericski wrote:
today i learned literature oftens portrays two sides of an issue to make a point.

did you just read your first book or something?


No, he just felt the need to make fun of me.

*coughcoughlikeafoilcharacterexceptwiththemescoughcough*
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Lurker
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:
Renegade wrote:
So they just violated her before the Order could, to get it all over with?


Kidnapping does not equal murdering.


Your right Lurker - murder is over and done with. Kidnapping is a trauma you have to carry the rest of your life.


I know it's not a fun experience, but it's not like they raped her, Luminous. I'm really baffled that Renegade even brought that up.
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Luminous
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 1359
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:

Now, given that Bree has spent quite a bit of time around Tachyon, I think it's reasonable to believe that she knows more than we do about what happened - and since we know enough to think it's something bad, Bree definitely should.


So I guess you missed the bunker video where she admitted she knew nothing. She doesn't have a clue about anything.

http://www.lonelygirl15.com/?p=237&play=1

"I knew nothing except when to bow and turn and what I could and couldn't eat."

And then, about the watchers she said:

"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."

There is nothing here that demonstrates the kind of imminent threat that would be required to justify ripping a child away from her home and family.
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Last edited by Luminous on Thu May 10, 2007 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luminous wrote:
So I guess you missed the bunker video where she admitted she knew nothing. She doesn't have a clue about anything.


She said she doesn't know what it is. Doesn't mean she doesn't know if it sucks.

For that matter, she only seemed to be talking about it in terms of preparations.

Luminous wrote:
"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."


Why are you quoting that? That was about the Watchers.
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Luminous
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:
I'm really baffled that Renegade even brought that up.



And this right here, is the crux of the problem. It's unfortunate this goes over your head Lurker.
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Luminous
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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Location: Facility J

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:


Luminous wrote:
"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."


Why are you quoting that? That was about the Watchers.


Thanks for calling that to my attention. I was in a hurry, and didn't finish my comment. Refer to edited comment above.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:
I'm really baffled that Renegade even brought that up.



And this right here, is the crux of the problem. It's unfortunate this goes over your head Lurker.


I'm not seeing how kidnapping is worse, I'm sorry. I don't think it's worse than murder, and it's not comparable to rape. I've known victims of both kidnapping and rape, and I didn't see the same results. Maybe others have, but I haven't.

Anyway, with murder, the people who loved the victim suffer the rest of their lives, and the victim doesn't get to even have a life. Maybe that wouldn't matter in this case, though. Perhaps Jules' parents don't actually care about her. Even if that's true, I still don't see kidnapping as worse than murder, or even in the same ballpark as rape.

Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:


Luminous wrote:
"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."


Why are you quoting that? That was about the Watchers.


Thanks for calling that to my attention. I was in a hurry, and didn't finish my comment. Refer to edited comment above.


Luminous wrote:
And then, about the watchers she said:

"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."

There is nothing here that demonstrates the kind of imminent threat that would be required to justify ripping a child away from her home and family.


Again, those are the Watchers.

If you're overfeeding a turkey so you can get a really big meal out of him, are you going to let foxes eat him just because you planned to kill him later?
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consideration
The Order of Denderah


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 2586
Location: Pandaboo

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:
If you're overfeeding a turkey so you can get a really big meal out of him, are you going to let foxes eat him just because you planned to kill him later?
I looove Lurker
I love him so
I love Lurker
I hope he knows
how amaaaazing
all his posts are.

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Luminous
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:
Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:
I'm really baffled that Renegade even brought that up.



And this right here, is the crux of the problem. It's unfortunate this goes over your head Lurker.


I'm not seeing how kidnapping is worse, I'm sorry. I don't think it's worse than murder, and it's not comparable to rape. I've known victims of both kidnapping and rape, and I didn't see the same results. Maybe others have, but I haven't.


I could site several cases, but one case in particular that comes to mind is the case of Steven Staynor, who was kidnapped as a young boy, then he later escaped when his captor kidnapped a second child. Staynor never emotionally recovered. He later died in a motorcycle accident that possibly was suicide. His brother, who was severly traumatized by the event went on to become a serial killer, brutally murduring at least 4 women. In my opinion, yea it would probably have been better if Steven had died. I would almost bet his parents would agree.

Lurker wrote:

Luminous wrote:
And then, about the watchers she said:

"They don't seem interested in harming me at all. In fact it's the complete opposite. It was like they were trying to protect me."

There is nothing here that demonstrates the kind of imminent threat that would be required to justify ripping a child away from her home and family.


Again, those are the Watchers.

If you're overfeeding a turkey so you can get a really big meal out of him, are you going to let foxes eat him just because you planned to kill him later?


We have absolutely zero evidence that the watchers, or anyone else in the organization have any intent to do her harm - again, certainly not enough to justify a kidnapping.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

consideration wrote:
Lurker wrote:
If you're overfeeding a turkey so you can get a really big meal out of him, are you going to let foxes eat him just because you planned to kill him later?
I looove Lurker
I love him so
I love Lurker
I hope he knows
how amaaaazing
all his posts are.


Aww, thanks Mary. Embarassed

I don't think that's one of my better posts, though. d'oh! I hate how this whole thing is speculation. Sad

Luminous wrote:
I could site several cases, but one case in particular that comes to mind is the case of Steven Staynor, who was kidnapped as a young boy, then he later escaped when his captor kidnapped a second child. Staynor never emotionally recovered. He later died in a motorcycle accident that possibly was suicide.


Dude, Steven Stayner was kidnapped at the age of seven and then frequently raped for the next seven years. As long as he'd been alive prior to being kidnapped, and at ages that stick in the memory more than early childhood. How is that even comparable to a brief stint as the captive of people trying to protect you from harm?

As for whether Steven's motorcycle accident was suicide, I guess we'll never know. He had a wife and kids by that point, though, so I hope he wouldn't have just thrown his life away.

Luminous wrote:
His brother, who was severly traumatized by the event went on to become a serial killer, brutally murduring at least 4 women.


His brother said he'd fantasized about hurting women since even before Steven's kidnapping. As far as I've ever heard, the only way the kidnapping of Steven may have even played into his violence was that it made him bitter because of all the attention that went to Steven instead of himself.

For that matter, it was almost 20 years after Steven was returned to his home (and 10 years after Steven's death) that Cary Stayner even committed those murders you're talking about. Who even knows what else may have played into it by then (such as the drugs he was taking, the murder of his uncle, and any amount of other stuff we don't and will never know).

Luminous wrote:
In my opinion, yea it would probably have been better if Steven's kidnapper had killed him.


They're not here to agree or disagree, so I wouldn't try to speak for them.

Luminous wrote:
We have absolutely zero evidence that the watchers, or anyone else in the organization have any intent to do her harm - again, certainly not enough to justify a kidnapping.


Are you intentionally not factoring in the thing about Tachyon's sister? That's reason enough to be worried right there.

In normal circumstances, knowing something like that and not informing the police or child services would be seen as a horrible failure to recognize one's civil responsibility. In these circumstances, going to the police is obviously not an option.

So I've got to stick with there being enough to justify the kidnapping.
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Luminous
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 1359
Location: Facility J

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurker wrote:

So I've got to stick with there being enough to justify the kidnapping.


All I can say is your moral judgements and your tendency to support extreme measures based on circumstance and hearsay are frightening.
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There's no place like home.
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Last edited by Luminous on Thu May 10, 2007 3:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:

So I've got to stick with there being enough to justify the kidnapping.


All I can say is your moral judgements and your tendency to support extreme measures based on circumstance and hearsay are frightening.


Because the belief that a kid may be dead in a matter of days along with the knowledge that neither her parents nor law enforcement are an option isn't an extreme situation.

Thank you oh so much for calling into question my capacity for compassion (twice now) instead of commenting on what I said. This has been a waste of my time.
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Luminous
Thor's Hammer


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 1359
Location: Facility J

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luminous wrote:
Lurker wrote:

So I've got to stick with there being enough to justify the kidnapping.


All I can say is your moral judgements and your tendency to support extreme measures based on circumstance and hearsay are frightening.



Not to mention your attempts to justify yourself by twisting words.
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Haether
Lonely Fan


Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 230
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a significant difference between being kidnapped for about two days by a group of attractive, semi-retarded, mostly-friendly teenagers than being kidnapped by a child molester and held for several years. The difference being, mostly, the frequent, repeated, and brutal raping.

Stop taking this whole scene so out of context.
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