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Mental Health Talk
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Samara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You don't have a BA in Psychology. If you did, you would know that...




Holding any kind of a degree or certification or licensure is no guarantee that a person actually knows anything -- even at the Masters or Doctorate level. There's lots of incompetency.

Also, the lack of a degree does not mean ignorance either.


For example, my aunt is the most knowledgeable and experienced person I know with regard to diabetes...both because she is diabetic herself, and because her son was developed it when he was 4.

She teaches workshops, and does a lot of patient education for newly diagnosed diabetics. Doctors all over the county where she lives have her phone number and refer their patients to her because she has the ability to explain to people, in layman's terms, what to expect and what to do. Shes also got practical experience as a parent of a diabetic, especially when it comes to things like availability of injections when at school.

She has an associates degree in Accounting.



On the flip side, the idiot orthopedic surgeon who mangled my husband's shoulder shouldn't be allowed to be in practice to this day because of what he did. I don't care where he went to school...or how many exams he passed. He took a shortcut in my husband's surgery because he had a tee time to make...a shortcut that ended up costing us more than any malpractice settlement ever could have covered.



Degrees mean nothing. Practical experience with positive results mean everything.
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onsweetavenue
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really think alex having bipolar disorder or not having it factors into whether she had anything to do with this though. First, it's too subtle, second, people react so differently to the disease it's just not worth it, third, you can't just put a disease like that together (especially with only a BA in pschology) and have it sound like a trusted opinion. Enough said.

I think the way the video was phrased with Jonas should lead us to at least consider alex, though of course it doesn't have to be her and it might just be setting us up for a twist, but to not consider her doesn't make sense since they clearly brought her up for a reason.
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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:
Quote:
You don't have a BA in Psychology. If you did, you would know that...




Holding any kind of a degree or certification or licensure is no guarantee that a person actually knows anything -- even at the Masters or Doctorate level. There's lots of incompetency.

Also, the lack of a degree does not mean ignorance either.


For example, my aunt is the most knowledgeable and experienced person I know with regard to diabetes...both because she is diabetic herself, and because her son was developed it when he was 4.

She teaches workshops, and does a lot of patient education for newly diagnosed diabetics. Doctors all over the county where she lives have her phone number and refer their patients to her because she has the ability to explain to people, in layman's terms, what to expect and what to do. Shes also got practical experience as a parent of a diabetic, especially when it comes to things like availability of injections when at school.

She has an associates degree in Accounting.



On the flip side, the idiot orthopedic surgeon who mangled my husband's shoulder shouldn't be allowed to be in practice to this day because of what he did. I don't care where he went to school...or how many exams he passed. He took a shortcut in my husband's surgery because he had a tee time to make...a shortcut that ended up costing us more than any malpractice settlement ever could have covered.



Degrees mean nothing. Practical experience with positive results mean everything.


How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.
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Aithne
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:

You're way off base. The "overt good and overt evil" you describe is not Bipolar, nor did I say it was. But it could be a psychotic break.

Go back to the early videos of Alex. Whenever she is confronted with her conflicting loyalties (Jonas versus The Order) she experiences a psychotic break. In this state her behavior is grandiose and somewhat deranged. Psychosis is typically an indicator of a disorder. (I say bipolar but you don't have to agree.) Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.

And, I say, not likely she planned Bree's escape.
Are you suggesting that bipolar develops due to circumstances?

Quote:
What Causes Bipolar Disorder?

Scientists are learning about the possible causes of bipolar disorder through several kinds of studies. Most scientists now agree that there is no single cause for bipolar disorderórather, many factors act together to produce the illness.

Because bipolar disorder tends to run in families, researchers have been searching for specific genesóthe microscopic "building blocks" of DNA inside all cells that influence how the body and mind work and growópassed down through generations that may increase a person's chance of developing the illness. But genes are not the whole story. Studies of identical twins, who share all the same genes, indicate that both genes and other factors play a role in bipolar disorder. If bipolar disorder were caused entirely by genes, then the identical twin of someone with the illness would always develop the illness, and research has shown that this is not the case. But if one twin has bipolar disorder, the other twin is more likely to develop the illness than is another sibling.6

In addition, findings from gene research suggest that bipolar disorder, like other mental illnesses, does not occur because of a single gene.7 It appears likely that many different genes act together, and in combination with other factors of the person or the person's environment, to cause bipolar disorder. Finding these genes, each of which contributes only a small amount toward the vulnerability to bipolar disorder, has been extremely difficult. But scientists expect that the advanced research tools now being used will lead to these discoveries and to new and better treatments for bipolar disorder.

Brain-imaging studies are helping scientists learn what goes wrong in the brain to produce bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses.8,9 New brain-imaging techniques allow researchers to take pictures of the living brain at work, to examine its structure and activity, without the need for surgery or other invasive procedures. These techniques include magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), positron emission tomography (PET), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). There is evidence from imaging studies that the brains of people with bipolar disorder may differ from the brains of healthy individuals. As the differences are more clearly identified and defined through research, scientists will gain a better understanding of the underlying causes of the illness, and eventually may be able to predict which types of treatment will work most effectively.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm#bp5

There are countless other reliable and trust worthy sites that say the same thing. Perhaps I misunderstood you. However, if you are suggesting that the gene magically forms due to circumstances. I would ask that you back up your claim. I have backed up mine. If you feel that I have misunderstood you, please clarify that remark and include something to back up your statements. If you choose not to back up your claims, I can only assume you are an ass.


Please note I did not call you an ass, I am asking you to tell me if you are one.


ETA:
spiff5000 wrote:


How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.
If this is true, I feel really sorry for the clients/patients you work with. I will add them all to my prayers.

Last edited by Aithne on Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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voyboy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:
Samara wrote:
Quote:
You don't have a BA in Psychology. If you did, you would know that...




Holding any kind of a degree or certification or licensure is no guarantee that a person actually knows anything -- even at the Masters or Doctorate level. There's lots of incompetency.

Also, the lack of a degree does not mean ignorance either.


For example, my aunt is the most knowledgeable and experienced person I know with regard to diabetes...both because she is diabetic herself, and because her son was developed it when he was 4.

She teaches workshops, and does a lot of patient education for newly diagnosed diabetics. Doctors all over the county where she lives have her phone number and refer their patients to her because she has the ability to explain to people, in layman's terms, what to expect and what to do. Shes also got practical experience as a parent of a diabetic, especially when it comes to things like availability of injections when at school.

She has an associates degree in Accounting.



On the flip side, the idiot orthopedic surgeon who mangled my husband's shoulder shouldn't be allowed to be in practice to this day because of what he did. I don't care where he went to school...or how many exams he passed. He took a shortcut in my husband's surgery because he had a tee time to make...a shortcut that ended up costing us more than any malpractice settlement ever could have covered.



Degrees mean nothing. Practical experience with positive results mean everything.


How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.


I was gone for hours and this is still going on?

Oy!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:
How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.


Samara didn't flame you. Grow up, please.

As for those of us who did, it was due to the absurdity of what you said. If you'd been willing to acknowledge just how absurd it was, I'm sure the flaming would have stopped. Yet you continue to insist that you're correct.

I'll say this much for you: Your tenacity to stand by your assertion in the face of all logic and reason is amazing.


By the way, you're not exactly impressing anyone by demanding they present you a medical background before they engage you in discussion on this. Especially when the background of which you've boasted so far has apparently brought you unarmed to this battle of wits. While diagnosing bipolar disorder might not always be a walk in the park, what the concept entails is not difficult to understand at all.

So far you've not presented even that basic understanding of it, which some of us have either due to general knowledge, being bipolar, or having friends or relatives that are. Keep in mind that this means you're whining about people pointing out the flaws in what you've said when you've made proposterous insults about some of them, their friend(s) or their relative(s).

Again, please try to grow up. Also, you might want to try backing up some of what you've claimed, such as bipoloar disorder magically being produced by losing a relative, the assertion that a bipolar individual likely couldn't devise a very short, simple acrostic, and the suggestion that being bipolar implies that someone is going to be so constantly fucked up from mood fluctuations that they can't hold their attention on a dozen lines of prose for a few minutes.


Last edited by Lurker on Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Samara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:
How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.


I wasn't flaming you. You're on the defensive and are wanting to see it as an insult, but it wasn't. If anything it may have been in your support.

My observation is that degrees aren't worth shit without proven track history and experience. Degrees only serve to allow access to more experience, but it isn't the only way to obtain it.

Authoritative sources, however, generally refer to their experience and not to their education. My lawyer can graduate from the best law school in the country and still be a bad lawyer.

Whereas there are times when a nurse practitioner knows a hell of a lot more about bedside manner and practical medicine than a doctor who has minimal contact with his patients.


BTW, in the field that I work in...I deal with a lot of case workers and social workers...on a daily basis. Some of them are outstanding and knowledgeable. Some of them don't have a friggin' clue what they're talking about, despite their "experience" or education.

I've learned to tell the crappy ones from the good ones. I've also learned that the crappy ones tend to think they are the best ones out there. Although, there is one lady whom I adore for her skill as a social worker. She really does know everything...she's a total bitch, but she's smart and she gets what she needs for her clients and knows how to work the system because she's had 30+ years experience doing it. No amount of schooling taught her that, it just gave her access to it.

My point being...knowledge and authority usually show through by wha tyou say and how you approach situations.


HOWEVER...my mother is bi-polar. She wasn't diagnosed as such until her mid-40's after the death of my father and some other tragic events. Upon her diagnosis, it became clear that she was always this way, but because she's so brilliant and aware of herself, she was able to hide it and turn her "eccentricities" into talents. My mother is an English professor and a prolific writer. She's amazing and talented.

It took a series of series events to bring her down enough to a point where she couldn't cover it up anymore. When we learned of this, we had so many, "Well that explains...." moments. It made me realize just how strong and amazing she is to have had to fight with herself on a daily basis all those years. I wouldn't have her any other way.

So, I can see both sides of the argument here...and I'm not flaming anyone, but I will say that bi-polar people are perfectly capable of leading "normal" lives and of being creative individuals.

Quote:
I'm merely saying if Alex were suffering from Bipolar Disorder she likely wouldn't be composing elaborate plans and cryptic messages. Those activities require a balanced temperament, patience and persistence; these traits are absence when your mood is out of control.


To which I will flame you to say that's total bullshit. SOme of the most brilliant literature and inventions of our time have some from people suffering from any number of disorders within their manic and/or depressive states. Ever hear of Ludwig van Beethoven?


Last edited by Samara on Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Nieriel.Manwathiel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:looks at above post and ducks:
wow; hope i missed the bulk of the flamming and mud-slinging!


edit -- cause the above post looks like the typical "flamming status: cooling down"-type post
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JanaL
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
:looks at above post and ducks:
wow; hope i missed the bulk of the flamming and mud-slinging!


edit -- cause the above post looks like the typical "flamming status: cooling down"-type post



I sure hope so.. I've been watching this thread for a while and I can't believe how long it's been going on.
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Samara
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm done now. I wasn't flaming anyone just adding my thoughts.

I also think that trying to diagnose a disorder bases on a few scattered scripted moments is really quite impossible.
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JanaL
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No harm in adding your own thoughts to something, it's what this forum is for! Smile
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Nieriel.Manwathiel
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:
Well, I'm done now. I wasn't flaming anyone just adding my thoughts.

I also think that trying to diagnose a disorder bases on a few scattered scripted moments is really quite impossible.


but it can be fun to try and predict a plot twist Smile
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Samara
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's true, N.M....so true!
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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aithne wrote:
spiff5000 wrote:

You're way off base. The "overt good and overt evil" you describe is not Bipolar, nor did I say it was. But it could be a psychotic break.

Go back to the early videos of Alex. Whenever she is confronted with her conflicting loyalties (Jonas versus The Order) she experiences a psychotic break. In this state her behavior is grandiose and somewhat deranged. Psychosis is typically an indicator of a disorder. (I say bipolar but you don't have to agree.) Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.

And, I say, not likely she planned Bree's escape.
Are you suggesting that bipolar develops due to circumstances?

Quote:
What Causes Bipolar Disorder?

Scientists are learning about the possible causes of bipolar disorder through several kinds of studies. Most scientists now agree that there is no single cause for bipolar disorderórather, many factors act together to produce the illness.

Because bipolar disorder tends to run in families, researchers have been searching for specific genesóthe microscopic "building blocks" of DNA inside all cells that influence how the body and mind work and growópassed down through generations that may increase a person's chance of developing the illness. But genes are not the whole story. Studies of identical twins, who share all the same genes, indicate that both genes and other factors play a role in bipolar disorder. If bipolar disorder were caused entirely by genes, then the identical twin of someone with the illness would always develop the illness, and research has shown that this is not the case. But if one twin has bipolar disorder, the other twin is more likely to develop the illness than is another sibling.6

In addition, findings from gene research suggest that bipolar disorder, like other mental illnesses, does not occur because of a single gene.7 It appears likely that many different genes act together, and in combination with other factors of the person or the person's environment, to cause bipolar disorder. Finding these genes, each of which contributes only a small amount toward the vulnerability to bipolar disorder, has been extremely difficult. But scientists expect that the advanced research tools now being used will lead to these discoveries and to new and better treatments for bipolar disorder.

Brain-imaging studies are helping scientists learn what goes wrong in the brain to produce bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses.8,9 New brain-imaging techniques allow researchers to take pictures of the living brain at work, to examine its structure and activity, without the need for surgery or other invasive procedures. These techniques include magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), positron emission tomography (PET), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). There is evidence from imaging studies that the brains of people with bipolar disorder may differ from the brains of healthy individuals. As the differences are more clearly identified and defined through research, scientists will gain a better understanding of the underlying causes of the illness, and eventually may be able to predict which types of treatment will work most effectively.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm#bp5

There are countless other reliable and trust worthy sites that say the same thing. Perhaps I misunderstood you. However, if you are suggesting that the gene magically forms due to circumstances. I would ask that you back up your claim. I have backed up mine. If you feel that I have misunderstood you, please clarify that remark and include something to back up your statements. If you choose not to back up your claims, I can only assume you are an ass.


Please note I did not call you an ass, I am asking you to tell me if you are one.


ETA:
spiff5000 wrote:


How about 2 years post-graduate work as a case worker at a mental health facility. Does that count?

It'd be nice to have a discussion with someone with the background to support their opinion, and with the maturity to refrain from flaming me.
If this is true, I feel really sorry for the clients/patients you work with. I will add them all to my prayers.


That is a misunderstanding. My quote... "Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.".. is referring to the trauma she suffered when abandoned by her Father (if I remember correctly... I have to watch that vid again). If I am not remembering it correctly, my apologies.
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JanaL
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
Samara wrote:
Well, I'm done now. I wasn't flaming anyone just adding my thoughts.

I also think that trying to diagnose a disorder bases on a few scattered scripted moments is really quite impossible.


but it can be fun to try and predict a plot twist Smile


Which is basically what I just said in a more simple matter - but that's okay.
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