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Mental Health Talk
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Aithne
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:

That is a misunderstanding. My quote... "Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.".. is referring to the trauma she suffered when abandoned by her Father (if I remember correctly... I have to watch that vid again). If I am not remembering it correctly, my apologies.


Perhaps you missed my point. The type of trauma (or source) is irrelevent unless you are suggesting that the gene appears after trauma. If that is the case please provide some back up (links to reliable resources). If you lack the proof, please see my last post addressed to you.
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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aithne wrote:
spiff5000 wrote:

That is a misunderstanding. My quote... "Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.".. is referring to the trauma she suffered when abandoned by her Father (if I remember correctly... I have to watch that vid again). If I am not remembering it correctly, my apologies.


Perhaps you missed my point. The type of trauma (or source) is irrelevent unless you are suggesting that the gene appears after trauma. If that is the case please provide some back up (links to reliable resources). If you lack the proof, please see my last post addressed to you.


No, you are missing my point. I'll reference Wiki for this one...

Quote:
Abnormalities in brain function have been related to feelings of anxiety and lower stress resilience. When faced with a very stressful, negative major life event, such as a failure in an important area, an individual may have his first major depression. Conversely, when an individual accomplishes a major achievement he may experience his first hypomanic or manic episode. Individuals with bipolar disorder tend to experience episode triggers involving either interpersonal or achievement-related life events. An example of interpersonal-life events include falling in love or, conversely, the death of a close friend. Achievement-related life events include acceptance into an elite graduate school or by contrast, being fired from work (Miklowitz & Goldstein, 1997). Childbirth can also trigger a postpartum psychosis for bipolar women, which can lead in the worse cases to infanticide.

The "kindling" theory[30] asserts that people who are genetically predisposed toward bipolar disorder can experience a series of stressful events, each of which lowers the threshold at which mood changes occur. Eventually, a mood episode can start (and becomes recurrent) by itself. Not all individuals experience subsequent mood episodes in the absence of positive or negative life events, however.

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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:
HOWEVER...my mother is bi-polar. She wasn't diagnosed as such until her mid-40's after the death of my father and some other tragic events. Upon her diagnosis, it became clear that she was always this way, but because she's so brilliant and aware of herself, she was able to hide it and turn her "eccentricities" into talents. My mother is an English professor and a prolific writer. She's amazing and talented.

It took a series of series events to bring her down enough to a point where she couldn't cover it up anymore. When we learned of this, we had so many, "Well that explains...." moments. It made me realize just how strong and amazing she is to have had to fight with herself on a daily basis all those years. I wouldn't have her any other way.

So, I can see both sides of the argument here...and I'm not flaming anyone, but I will say that bi-polar people are perfectly capable of leading "normal" lives and of being creative individuals.


I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm very sorry for your grief.

Samara wrote:
Spiff5000 wrote:
I'm merely saying if Alex were suffering from Bipolar Disorder she likely wouldn't be composing elaborate plans and cryptic messages. Those activities require a balanced temperament, patience and persistence; these traits are absence when your mood is out of control.


To which I will flame you to say that's total bullshit. SOme of the most brilliant literature and inventions of our time have some from people suffering from any number of disorders within their manic and/or depressive states. Ever hear of Ludwig van Beethoven?


Are you comparing Alex with Beethoven???

I didn't say she wasn't capable of it. It's just not likely. The vast majority of poor souls that have this disorder are just trying to get through one day at a time. The suicide rate (of those who have been diagnosed) is about 20%. Someone with Alex's history would likely be focusing all her ego strength on maintaining an emotional equilibrium.
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Aithne
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wiki quote? Didn't you dispute someone's medical dictionary quote earlier? oh well...

spiff5000 wrote:


No, you are missing my point. I'll reference Wiki for this one...

Quote:
Abnormalities in brain function have been related to feelings of anxiety and lower stress resilience. When faced with a very stressful, negative major life event, such as a failure in an important area, an individual may have his first major depression. Conversely, when an individual accomplishes a major achievement he may experience his first hypomanic or manic episode. Individuals with bipolar disorder tend to experience episode triggers involving either interpersonal or achievement-related life events. An example of interpersonal-life events include falling in love or, conversely, the death of a close friend. Achievement-related life events include acceptance into an elite graduate school or by contrast, being fired from work (Miklowitz & Goldstein, 1997). Childbirth can also trigger a postpartum psychosis for bipolar women, which can lead in the worse cases to infanticide.

The "kindling" theory[30] asserts that people who are genetically predisposed toward bipolar disorder can experience a series of stressful events, each of which lowers the threshold at which mood changes occur. Eventually, a mood episode can start (and becomes recurrent) by itself. Not all individuals experience subsequent mood episodes in the absence of positive or negative life events, however.

You seemed to have missed the underlined sections. One cannot "become bipolar" due to a tramatic event or anything else for that matter. Bipolar is in the genes. period.
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longlostposter
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiff5000 wrote:
Are you comparing Alex with Beethoven???


No, she wasn't...but if you want a list of famous, creative, intellectual, bipolars I'll get you one. A lot of them are/were writers.

spiff wrote:
The suicide rate (of those who have been diagnosed) is about 20%. Someone with Alex's history would likely be focusing all her ego strength on maintaining an emotional equilibrium.


Where do you get this statistic? This is not accurate. You have embellished this like you have embellished your knowledge of this subject.

BTW, Alex really seems to be falling apart at the seams. She's an emotional wreck....NOT.

If you were a mental health professional you would know that what we have seen of Alex is not enough to base a diagnosis on. Not only that, she does not display the symptoms of bipolar.

How long are you going to go on with this charade of yours?

Fucking moron.
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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aithne wrote:
A wiki quote? Didn't you dispute someone's medical dictionary quote earlier? oh well...


A medical dictionary doesn't cut it on this subject. Period.

Aithne wrote:
spiff5000 wrote:


No, you are missing my point. I'll reference Wiki for this one...

Quote:
Abnormalities in brain function have been related to feelings of anxiety and lower stress resilience. When faced with a very stressful, negative major life event, such as a failure in an important area, an individual may have his first major depression. Conversely, when an individual accomplishes a major achievement he may experience his first hypomanic or manic episode. Individuals with bipolar disorder tend to experience episode triggers involving either interpersonal or achievement-related life events. An example of interpersonal-life events include falling in love or, conversely, the death of a close friend. Achievement-related life events include acceptance into an elite graduate school or by contrast, being fired from work (Miklowitz & Goldstein, 1997). Childbirth can also trigger a postpartum psychosis for bipolar women, which can lead in the worse cases to infanticide.

The "kindling" theory[30] asserts that people who are genetically predisposed toward bipolar disorder can experience a series of stressful events, each of which lowers the threshold at which mood changes occur. Eventually, a mood episode can start (and becomes recurrent) by itself. Not all individuals experience subsequent mood episodes in the absence of positive or negative life events, however.

You seemed to have missed the underlined sections. One cannot "become bipolar" due to a tramatic even or anything else for that matter. Bipolar is in the genes. period.


You are right, Bipolar Disorder is hereditary. And, you are wrong, Bipolar Disorder can be triggered by a traumatic event.

Bipolar Disorder is an illness defined by a condition. At least one depressive episode is required to be diagnosed as Bipolar I. Some people - despite being predisposed - go there whole life without experiencing a manic or depressive episode. You are not guaranteed to develop the condition just because it runs in the family.

There are different camps on this issue but I tend to believe the condition requires a trigger... like a traumatic situation... like being rejected by a parent... before the onset of the illness.
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spiff5000
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

longlostposter wrote:
spiff5000 wrote:
Are you comparing Alex with Beethoven???


No, she wasn't...but if you want a list of famous, creative, intellectual, bipolars I'll get you one. A lot of them are/were writers.

spiff wrote:
The suicide rate (of those who have been diagnosed) is about 20%. Someone with Alex's history would likely be focusing all her ego strength on maintaining an emotional equilibrium.


Where do you get this statistic? This is not accurate. You have embellished this like you have embellished your knowledge of this subject.

BTW, Alex really seems to be falling apart at the seams. She's an emotional wreck....NOT.

If you were a mental health professional you would know that what we have seen of Alex is not enough to base a diagnosis on. Not only that, she does not display the symptoms of bipolar.

How long are you going to go on with this charade of yours?

Fucking moron.


http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/article/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=193400986
"The standardized mortality ratio from suicide in BD is estimated to be approximately 18 to 25, further emphasizing the lethality of the disorder."

Of course we haven't seen enough of Alex to make a diagnosis. I said that two pages ago. This is just speculative banter.

And don't call me a f***ing moron. Mind your manners or I'll report you to the mod.
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MintyBeast
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, can you guys honestly just stop?

Anyone and everyone, just stop?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

omgosh seriously???? u guyz are still arguing??? lol........sorry but i must say something lol.................NOBODY and i mean NOBODY knows whts wrong with Alex.........we dont even know if she is sick or not...........soo arguing about well umm *nothing* sounds kind of silly too me......and.....i dont think that anybody has anything to prove......if u were wrong, fine move on.......if u dont think u were wrong.........thats ok move on anyway lol........im sorry maybe its jsut me but i dont see the big deal here Confused Confused
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Samara
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And, you are wrong, Bipolar Disorder can be triggered by a traumatic event.



The disorder itself is not triggered by an event, but symptoms of it can be. The disorder is always there. SOme people just learn to live with it, other learn to work around it, and others simply cannot cope.

I mentioned my mother because she's a classic case of that. She has always been bipolar, but none of us knew it. We just thought she was a little bit different because she was so creative, so intelligent and so talented. Yes, she fought everyday to maintain a sense of normalcy, but that didn't make her incapable. She made plenty of erratic and bizarre decisions in her life...but know it makes sense and we are able to watch for signs of cycling and help guide her and support her rather than shut her away.


I am a bit bothered by the terms of "poor souls" and the dismissive nature of your comments. Rather than classifying it as a hinderence to living it should simply be a recognition of a difference in brain function and a focus on working with it rather than against it.

That's all I'm going to say about it now, though. Two years as a case worker with advanced cases isn't that much practical, real world experience. Try living with it for 20 years.

At any rate, like I said before...it's impossible to diagnose a character based upon a few minutes of video like that.

Clearly, somebody scripted these messages...which proves that there are many withing the Order that are looking out for Bree and her well-being. It also once again proves that there are different factions within the order wanting different things.

Clearly, it's somebody within the order...somebody with experience writing. Alex isn't a writer as far as we've been told.

I'm leaning toward it being Jonas' father. He was part of a resistance movement then absorbed into the Order. Who's to say he isn't still part of that resistance, but trying to overtake it through the inside? It makes the most sense to me.
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Aithne
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:
Quote:
And, you are wrong, Bipolar Disorder can be triggered by a traumatic event.



The disorder itself is not triggered by an event, but symptoms of it can be. The disorder is always there. SOme people just learn to live with it, other learn to work around it, and others simply cannot cope.

I mentioned my mother because she's a classic case of that. She has always been bipolar, but none of us knew it. We just thought she was a little bit different because she was so creative, so intelligent and so talented. Yes, she fought everyday to maintain a sense of normalcy, but that didn't make her incapable. She made plenty of erratic and bizarre decisions in her life...but know it makes sense and we are able to watch for signs of cycling and help guide her and support her rather than shut her away.


I am a bit bothered by the terms of "poor souls" and the dismissive nature of your comments. Rather than classifying it as a hinderence to living it should simply be a recognition of a difference in brain function and a focus on working with it rather than against it.

That's all I'm going to say about it now, though. Two years as a case worker with advanced cases isn't that much practical, real world experience. Try living with it for 20 years.

At any rate, like I said before...it's impossible to diagnose a character based upon a few minutes of video like that.

Clearly, somebody scripted these messages...which proves that there are many withing the Order that are looking out for Bree and her well-being. It also once again proves that there are different factions within the order wanting different things.

Clearly, it's somebody within the order...somebody with experience writing. Alex isn't a writer as far as we've been told.

I'm leaning toward it being Jonas' father. He was part of a resistance movement then absorbed into the Order. Who's to say he isn't still part of that resistance, but trying to overtake it through the inside? It makes the most sense to me.
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My mom also has bipolar.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

voyboy wrote:
Lurker wrote:
This seems like an interesting theory. It would make sense even. Sonia also seems a little different from how she was at the party. She was more bubbly then, I think. She seemed a little stiff in "Sing With Me." Perhaps both of them are trying to play the role of dedicated Hymnites as they think it would look (I think we all have an idea of what someone deluded into following a group like this would act like).


Yes yes! I noticed that Sonia was different from the first HoO video with Bree. At the seminar she was forced smiles robotic. I actually noticed that Carl was robotic as well. When he would erase something from the board he was really machanical about it. It took longer than it should have.
But back to Sonia, she is for sure different than she was at the party. She appeared to be sweet and as you said bubbly, and now...
Sonia's a zombie


Yes, that's it exactly, voyboy: She seemed warm/sweet and bubbly before, but now she's like a zombie.


Before I begin anything else, I want to apologize to Nieriel.Manwathiel, JanaL, voyboy, MintyBeast, hamovbala4ever89 and anyone else not happy about this discussion. Unfortunately, I'm not so sorry that I'm not going to make the attempt to put down asshattery when I see it at work. Forgive me (or not, if you would prefer), but it needs to be said.

spiff5000 wrote:
Samara wrote:
To which I will flame you to say that's total bullshit. SOme of the most brilliant literature and inventions of our time have some from people suffering from any number of disorders within their manic and/or depressive states. Ever hear of Ludwig van Beethoven?


Are you comparing Alex with Beethoven???


...How did you arrive at that conclusion? Samara didn't even mention Alex.

spiff5000 wrote:
I didn't say she wasn't capable of it. It's just not likely. The vast majority of poor souls that have this disorder are just trying to get through one day at a time.


In addition to "missing" (ever so conveniently) my last post to you and several others sent your way, you seem to be overlooking the fact (just as conveniently) that people with bipolar disorder are not constantly fluctuating between two extremes. It doesn't work like that. They experience episodes, not the Truman Show.

By the way, if you're going to respond with "I didn't reply to you guys because you were being rude to me," then please continue not bothering. That's the same lame cop-out that's always used on the Internet when someone claims to be up on their shit and then gets called out. You've already whined enough as is, even while you've been insulting people left and right.

spiff5000 wrote:
Someone with Alex's history would likely be focusing all her ego strength on maintaining an emotional equilibrium.


You're still talking like crappy situations produce bipolar disorder in people, regardless of consideration of whether they have the gene. You don't know much of anything about Alex. None of us do. Jesus Christ.

spiff5000 wrote:
Aithne wrote:
A wiki quote? Didn't you dispute someone's medical dictionary quote earlier? oh well...


A medical dictionary doesn't cut it on this subject. Period.


Dude, it wasn't describing something all that complicated in the first place. f**k.

It's as simple as "'psychosis' is a general catch-all way of saying that someone has a disorder of some kind." Please don't act like it's something so elaborate that only you, Esteemed Non-Bipolar BA Guy, can handle it.

spiff5000 wrote:
Aithne wrote:
You seemed to have missed the underlined sections. One cannot "become bipolar" due to a tramatic even or anything else for that matter. Bipolar is in the genes. period.


You are right, Bipolar Disorder is hereditary. And, you are wrong, Bipolar Disorder can be triggered by a traumatic event.


Given how much difficulty you're having with processing all this, you really shouldn't be referring to those with bipolar disorder as individuals incapable of easily making it through each day.

Do you know what you said here? More importantly, do you know what Aithne said? She said that you don't just magically become bipolar due to a traumatic event. The gene has to be there first. Pay. Attention.

Jesus, you just told her that she's wrong and then turned around and said exactly what she'd already said, as though you'd schooled her. f**k. How does that happen? Seriously?

spiff5000 wrote:
And don't call me a f***ing moron. Mind your manners or I'll report you to the mod.


Report the baseless and laughable insults you've been making to them while you're at it.

As long as the matter's actually being discussed instead of you just being flamed, can you not take it like a big boy? Especially since you've been insulting other people with outrageous absuridities since this catastrofuck of a discussion began?

And since you told Juli that she was projecting in your very first response to her (which meant you were calling her bipolar without even knowing her, and saying that she felt a need to defend Alex because she was feeling attacked herself; you're not the only one here to understand what that concept means, jackhole)? By the way, before you even try it, no, I'm not bipolar. You'll have to do better than "You're projecting" with me.

Seriously, you're being hypocritical. And give the mods a break. They've got more important things to do than babysit your ego. If you can't take it, try not dishing it out.

spiff5000 wrote:
Some people - despite being predisposed - go there whole life without experiencing a manic or depressive episode. You are not guaranteed to develop the condition just because it runs in the family.

There are different camps on this issue but I tend to believe the condition requires a trigger... like a traumatic situation... like being rejected by a parent... before the onset of the illness.


However, you're not going to randomly gain the gene due to a traumatic event, which is what Aithne has been trying to say for God knows how long, while you continue trying to argue, seemingly just for the sake of trying to save face somehow.

You've also changed you story, by the way. Back toward the beginning, you said this about Alex:

spiff5000 wrote:
Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.


You were implying that bipolar disorder could be produced in anyone due to something like abandonment. Now you're mentioning (in a manner that looks almost intentionally like it's trying to forget you ever said what I just quoted) that the gene has to be triggered.

spiff5000 wrote:
That is a misunderstanding. My quote... "Considering the history with her family (abandonment) it should be no surprise should would have a disorder.".. is referring to the trauma she suffered when abandoned by her Father (if I remember correctly... I have to watch that vid again). If I am not remembering it correctly, my apologies.


We don't know anything about what became of Alex's father. All we know is that her mother was killed in a car accident and the Hymn of One either truthfully or deceptively led her to believe that Jonas' father (Alex's brother) had something to do with it.
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Woo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crikey, I just finished my psychology degree two days ago and I come on here for some light relief and MORE PSYCHOLOGY! Arghhhhhh! I just want to get away from it! Laughing
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joygasm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lauren wrote:
If Alex left the clue for Daniel and Jonas, something doesn't fit right. Alex is the one who first let Bree know there was another girl for the ceremony, but right now, it looks like Julia was used simply to lure Bree back in. Alex should've known this, meaning that by letting Bree know about Julia, she was acting in accordance with The Order. Why would she do all of this to help The Order gain Bree back only to later attempt to help Daniel and Jonas save her from them?


I posted an explanation for this earlier. Remember how Alex was upset with them drugging the TAAG and she said she didn't know about it till after. It shows that Alex is not an all knowing member of the Order. There are people higher up than her who probably only tell her what she needs to know, like, "Bree doesn't even have to worry about the Ceremony because we have a new girl". Then when they get Bree and start preparing her for the Ceremony again, Alex realized they had lied to her and she needs to help her.

Although I can see a logical explanation for Alex doing it, I am hoping it was Jonas' father.

spiff5000 wrote:
Aithne wrote:
A wiki quote? Didn't you dispute someone's medical dictionary quote earlier? oh well...


A medical dictionary doesn't cut it on this subject. Period.

Shocked Shocked Shocked WIKIPEDIA!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked


You quoted wikipedia and yet you are going to make comments about other people's sources? I'll be bowing out now. You are a joke.

Lurker wrote:


As long as the matter's actually being discussed instead of you just being flamed, can you not take it like a big boy? Especially since you've been insulting other people with outrageous absuridities since this catastrofuck of a discussion began?


My love for Lurker just grew ever so greatly with the introduction of catastrofuck!

allformonkeys wrote:
Lurker my sister officially wants to bear your childeren lol but unfortunatly for her your heart belongs to a girl already


I stepped foot in that line long before your sister...
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Renegade
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy are all the psychology professors going to be pissed when they realize The Creators are proving science wrong on a daily basis, and don't give a shit for real-life disorders.

I'm all for longass discussions, but this one is fruitless on so many levels.


I mean, if you look at the beginning:
spiff5000 wrote:
[...] could suffer from bi-polar disorder. But, [...]

longlostposter wrote:
Hahahaha. You know nothing about bipolar.

JustAnotherLonelyGirl. wrote:
I refuse to address your reference to bipolar disorder. Stick to what you know about, please.

spiff5000 wrote:
Does a BA in Psychology count? [...]

longlostposter wrote:
You don't have a BA in Psychology. If you did, [...]

This is purely about who of you is a psychologic authority and who isn't. It has nothing to do with the series. And even if it had, marginally, as said above: It doesn't matter. The Creators write what they want to write, no matter if it makes sense - they're not gonna dig up medical definitions and include a complex medical condition just to explain some possible plot holes.

I know both the girls are kinda sane and reasonable, so I assume, purely on a personal trust basis, they know what they're talking about. But truth is, neither of us can prove spiff5000 lies with anything, and thanks to the magic of photoshop, he could give proof for degrees in fields that aren't even invented yet.
And he could say just the same about you. As much as you don't like to hear it, there's no proof for the experiences you all claim to have either.
In addition, as somebody mention earlier - it's entirely possible he has a degree in something and no idea anyway.

So...it's been kind of silent on this page so far, and I hope my post will be the last one touching this topic - unfortunately, I have this feeling it won't be. So if anyone feels the need to continue this, could you please do it in an off-topic area, where it belongs? Thank you.


(And don't you dare obfuscating your continuation by disguising it as replies to me saying I got it all wrong. I don't give a f**k. If it doesn't have a clear, direct connection to the series, move it to off-topic. Now.)
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