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Response to "Forum Rule Update: moderators actions"
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TOSG
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broken Kid wrote:
TOSG wrote:
Please tell me that this lack of transperancy is for another reason. I'll know just how to interpret your silence on this issue, should that be the case.


You're resorting to little tricks now. Confused

I've made my comments here. I have no plans right now to make the full guidelines of how moderators should behave and respond to situations public. I feel that doing so will make it more difficult for moderators to do their job. I offered to put together a moderator checklist based on the guidelines. As 'mute pointed out, the golden rule is to be fair and impartial.


No trickery from me - I'm just saying what my interpretation will be. Your response - dodging my question entirely - does nothing to change that interpretation.

If moderators are indeed following the guidelines, making the guidlines public will not "make it more difficult for moderators to do their job." It's only if the guidelines are being flouted that making the guidelines public would have any impact on how moderators are doing their job.

And, it would give the rest of us forumites a much clearer idea regarding what is and is not acceptable.

Really, your refusal to answer this query is puzzling.
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Killthesmiley
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I've gathered if it helps, is that there is a general feeling that the moderators shouldn't (in people opinions) be held accountable by the members, but Trainer, BK and the Creators alone.
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Samara
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've made my comments here. I have no plans right now to make the full guidelines of how moderators should behave and respond to situations public. I feel that doing so will make it more difficult for moderators to do their job.



BK, the thing is...and I don't think you quite grasp this...is that many of us see that as a non-answer. Not only is it a non-answer, it doesn't make any logical sense to us. How would it make their jobs more difficult? By all reasonable sense (as far as we can tell) it would actually make their jobs easier. I've clearly illustrated that a few posts back.


Quote:
I will re-stress to moderators the importance of posting a brief message when an action is taken and why or contacting a user via PM (in the case of editing/deleting a post).


I suppose that's all good and fine...but again, that's not happening by on any regular basis. Deleting posts, for example, just eliminates that they exist and causes confusion. I've had posts in this thread deleted...and I never got a PM or a note, and I've openly addressed that the facts the the posts deleted broke no rules at all.

Stress it all you want...but it's not happening. Just as I've said before...it's all talk and no action. And the talk we do get is convoluted and vague.

What we're trying to say is that the system you have isn't working, and by making it even less visible, all we can see is that you're making it that much harder on yourselves. In fact it almost looks like you guys are trying to look like martyrs.


Quote:
What I've gathered if it helps, is that there is a general feeling that the moderators shouldn't (in people opinions) be held accountable by the members, but Trainer, BK and the Creators alone.


That's kind of how I'm feeling, too. And I don't understand that. Moderators should be just as accountable for their actions as regular posters. How can a moderator be effective if they don't set an example? Nobody is forcing them to be moderators...they take on the responsibility themselves, which means they should be adult enough to be held accountable and be trusted enough to defend their actions.
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longlostposter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:

Quote:
What I've gathered if it helps, is that there is a general feeling that the moderators shouldn't (in people opinions) be held accountable by the members, but Trainer, BK and the Creators alone.


That's kind of how I'm feeling, too. And I don't understand that. Moderators should be just as accountable for their actions as regular posters. How can a moderator be effective if they don't set an example? Nobody is forcing them to be moderators...they take on the responsibility themselves, which means they should be adult enough to be held accountable and be trusted enough to defend their actions.


The bold was added by me in the above quote.

As for the quotes themselves...amen and amen.
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QtheC
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broken Kid wrote:
TOSG wrote:
Please tell me that this lack of transperancy is for another reason. I'll know just how to interpret your silence on this issue, should that be the case.


You're resorting to little tricks now. Confused

I've made my comments here. I have no plans right now to make the full guidelines of how moderators should behave and respond to situations public. I feel that doing so will make it more difficult for moderators to do their job. I offered to put together a moderator checklist based on the guidelines. As 'mute pointed out, the golden rule is to be fair and impartial.

ETA: If this conversation continues to repeat itself instead of continuing to be productive, it probably is complete.


There is a certain amount of repetition, but I think that needs to continue until actual communication occurs. Clearly, there is more to understand here.

It may be that these so-called "guidelines" are quite vague as implied earlier, and publishing them in their current condition would not really clear up the rules for everyone, but possibly fuel future debates without resolving much... I am just inferring here from what has been posted.

But I think, Broken Kid, while you have posted a few encouraging remarks, that somehow the overall message being conveyed is still one of a closed process of moderation - that you don't really want to share the reponsibility and influence over behavior within the community beyond the circle of moderators. I think this is a fundamental error... a more successful approach for everyone would be to throw the doors open, get buy-in thereby as the line between long-time users and mods blurs, and let whatever the rules or guidelines are be fully examined and improved by the full community.

Moderation becomes easier when the community understands what is happening in each instance, why, and becomes a part of an open process.
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QtheC
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samara wrote:
Instead of deleting threads willy-nilly...it's really best to simply edit a post. It helps retain the flow of the thread and lets people see when and why a post was removed...without having it *poof* out of existence.

Also, I think it would be a good idea for the users of this forum to see which moderators are editing posts, and why. The benefits are two-fold here. This can serve as a lesson to other users not to repeat the actions, and also sit as a method of accountability for the mods. They need to stand behind their actions, not hide behind their powers.


I agree. This is an important point.


Marbella wrote:
Samara, the new policy actually gives us all greater accountability. We are able to privately come to consensus on decisions and run them by Trainer for approval if needed.

We usually discuss our actions privately with other moderators, to make sure they would do the same thing under the same circumstances. It's really not "willy-nilly," and the new system gives you three levels to "vent" if you do not agree. It's one thing to distrust one person, but this way, the complaint is heard by three different people if you choose.

Your complaint can go all the way up to the Creators if need be, just not here on the board. It's a lot more effective to have a channel like this to go through. I think the new way is more efficient and will really give your concerns the recognition they deserve.


I think Marabella's reply misses (or ignores) the point entirely that things should not be deleted without leaving behind a message by the moderator with the reason ... otherwise the thread becomes extremely confusing and there is no accountability to the community as a whole.

Saying there is more accountability in private and that the private process has been improved somehow may help decisions improve behind the scenes - I'm all for moderators communicating among themselves and striving for consistent practices - but that does not help the users of the thread understand what is going on.

I am beginning to get the impression that the reaction to previous criticisms of moderators is leading to a very convoluted semi-hidden system that is not going to give the satisfaction or results desired by anyone involved. Efforts made in private will always be underrecognized, and likely misconstrued.

The goal here, for the benefit of everyone, should be more transparency and more involvement by community members, not less. That is the only way that disputes will ever diminish and the unreasonable will be seen as unreasonable by community concensus, and moderators will ultimately have an easier time.

Silent post deletion with a general offer to "PM" someone and trust that there will be a nice private resolution ... that just is not a practical or realistic way to expect the atmosphere to improve long term. What is someone going to do if they do not like the result or feel their concerns were ignored? Nothing has been resolved in that scenario. Conflicts continue.

Focus on a clear set of concrete visible rules and keep pointing to those rules as each individual action is taken. Leave a trail every time moderation occurs, that everyone, not just the person whose post was edited, can see and understand. This will remove much of the need for further work, and you will find community members explaining to each other what is allowed and what is not, without moderators even having to comment.
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Renegade
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broken Kid wrote:
[...]

ETA: If this conversation continues to repeat itself instead of continuing to be productive, it probably is complete.

lol...we wouldn't have to repeat the questions over and over if you just answered them once.

But, as someone above already said, your refusal to answer is very telling on its own.
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longlostposter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another post deleted. *sigh*
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Taig
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taig wrote:
This is not a new battle. It has been fought before by different players and they are always started when a moderator "spanks" someone for some real or imagined offensea and they are always ended with the moderator pronouncing the matter settled, then locking the thread and then going about enforcing the "new rule"or ignoring the original complaint.

Life goes on. A good episode is released* and everyone forgets about it. When it happens again it's always as though it is brand new.


Told you so...

Before the thredad get's locked I just wanted to say I'll probably see you all in the next "Moerators are Cruel and Unfair" debate.
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longlostposter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Taig, the resentment is still there, nonetheless, and people are leaving in droves.

Personally, I think the c's should abandon this, and move on to KateModern (minus a few troublemakers, of course).
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wintermute
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
lol...we wouldn't have to repeat the questions over and over if you just answered them once.

But, as someone above already said, your refusal to answer is very telling on its own.


I don't believe BK has refused to answer anything. He's simply asked for some time to give at least a partial answer to the demand for transparency. I think it's only fair to give him a little of the time he's asked for before assuming that he's going to not answer.

'mute
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deagol
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

omg you people are now bashing all moderators equally, not just one. dont you get that the creation of this rule was so that moderators wouldnt get bashed and feel powerless in front of criticism? now, instead of respecting them, as this fine rule intended, everyones treating every single one of them with distrust, accusing them of being shady, treting them all like crooks. i cant believe this! i thought BK said this would help the forums, and i thought it was so true because he said it more than once. now it looks like nobody trusts BK or the rest of the moderators. it used to be that i could see each of you as fans first and as moderators second, and when moderating, i would notice from your posts what a good job you did when dealing with trolls. now that everyone is a troll and you guys cant respond to these accusations i feel sorry for you guys and i wish you could come here as fans and confront your opinions against all these people saying you're all power hungry. now i feel the need to create a rainbow or something...

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ahhh yess
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Broken Kid
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

longlostposter wrote:
Well, Taig, the resentment is still there, nonetheless, and people are leaving in droves.


I want to make people aware that this is not really the case.

History has shown, unfortunately, that when there is a lull in the videos or the action in the videos, issues tend to spring up in Concerns & Complaints. I'm not saying that people do not have valid concerns. On the contrary, some good discussion has come out of them. But, also unfortunately, many of these turn conversations turn into flame wars.

This policy change is intended to help keep those flames and attacks from being aimed at moderators, who have been unable to properly do their jobs in the face of these posts. The conversation shifted quickly away from the policy to some idea that because of this change, moderators are going to run wild on the forum. We have a great group of moderators, and they'll continue to do a great job. We even added an extra layer of oversight to ensure that people are making the right choice.

While I feel - at this time - that posting the moderator guidelines will have a detrimental effect on the moderators' ability to do their jobs, I offered to post a checklist so that people can, as they requested, know when and why moderators get involved. In addition, the forum rules apply to moderators as well, of course.

The conversation had shifted to deleting posts. There were two posts in this thread warning that off-topic or accusatory posts would be deleted. It's not a forum-wide policy, as I said, but an attempt to keep the conversation productive and from turning into a flame war. Moderators are instructed to contact a user when they delete a post or split a topic. This has always been a policy.

At this point, I feel like I have responded to the issues as well as I can. I understand that people do not like or agree with all the answers. Repeating questions or points in more hostile ways will not spark a continued or productive dialog. I'd strongly encourage people to see how any changes effect their experience on the forum. I firmly believe there will be virtually no effect.

While this conversation has been going on, the rest of the forum has been quite active. New users drifting into C&C may feel the forum as a whole is in upheaval, but that isn't true. The forum remains an enjoyable, welcoming, and productive place! Thank you to everyone who contributes to that!
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Killthesmiley
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
Broken Kid wrote:
[...]

ETA: If this conversation continues to repeat itself instead of continuing to be productive, it probably is complete.

lol...we wouldn't have to repeat the questions over and over if you just answered them once.

But, as someone above already said, your refusal to answer is very telling on its own.

I hear yea!
lol

The problem with this conversation is not that we aren't getting the answer we want and we're bitching about it, but we're getting a stupid generic unclear answer with everything.

Every question seems to have the same answer. And I honestly feel the only people that can really clear it up is the head honchos themselves, the creators. We need a precise answer on why we aren't getting answers, we need the answer on why we aren't getting the full story and we need an answer on why this forum seems to strive on covering up information (trust me, I know how much shit you are all in right now for this part).

So why don't you fess up to everything, answer some questions and try to avoid more of a backlash. Because at this moment in time there is a huge movement to boycott the entire series (and this movement contains some of the most prominent fans on the comment, blogs, forum, chat, irc and youtube) because of all the idiotic covering up, the lack of responsibility people seem to want to take and the just plain ignorance towards our intelligence.

And don't tell me "Go ahead leave, we don't need you," because well...Neutrogena needs us. Get the picture?

I'm getting flipping angry with this forum and this site and the handling of the fans. I've NEVER in my life seen such ignorance towards such a large group of fans before.



PS: what I said earlier about ppl not wanting to be accountable towards the members wasn't a guess. I'm hearing it from sources within the ranks. Soooo....yea

ETA:
Quote:
While this conversation has been going on, the rest of the forum has been quite active. New users drifting into C&C may feel the forum as a whole is in upheaval, but that isn't true. The forum remains an enjoyable, welcoming, and productive place! Thank you to everyone who contributes to that!


You aren't involved in all the conversations BK. You aren't involved in half of the shit in this whole "breeniverse." Want to know why. Because you helped the creators cover up a lot of stuff.
So You are completely WRONG in this statement. I can promise you that. The whole interactive part of this series is in a huge upheaval.
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Taig
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Topic ...

LLP is they are leaving it's not because of you or this thread or this section or this forum.

drifting a little Off Topic
It is because almost everything in the LG15 story has decayed.

just about completely Off Topic
I agree. They should just pull the plug and move on to KateModern. If they are smart they will change their names too.

Back On Topic
Sorry. I meant not to post in here again. I'm done.


===========================================

ETA: 11:24am

I hadn't noticed KTS comments and I have to say "Wow" I really do not agree with her about prominent members (whateveer the hell that means) or Neutragena pulling out over a boycott by we dumbheads in this forum (and please I included myself there). In fact I don't agree with just about everything she says here or anywhere else...

BUT

there are some real nuggets of truth in her rant and she does make a pretty good point about how this discussion has united and ignited people from all points of view, levels of interest, talent and intelligence. It would appear that there is more than enough ego and arrogance on both sides of this issue to cause a very negative result in the end.

It's a pretty big fire and maybe somebody should do something to bring it under control pretty fast. And I don't mean locking it.

For me...it is all WAY too serious so I am backing out. There are bigger fish to fry; like the rapidly deteriorating state of the LG story altogether.

Hmmmm seems like maybe the all the natives are getting restless.


Last edited by Taig on Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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