Lonelygirl15

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

How come no one on these forums is talking about the concept of free will? It seems to be a main theme for lonelygirl. The thelemic religion seems to be very focused on free will, Johann Weyer's wrote about the legal ramifications of free will and magic and Bree's parents met having an argument about free will and determinism.

Seems to me that it is one of the main themes of the video and would probably provide a clearer idea of where the plot was heading. The ending must include something that makes us think about the ideas of free will and determinism.

Perhaps it isn't Bree that dies. Maybe under the influence of magic, she kills Daniel.

JustAnotherLonelyGirl. · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject:

Actually, the concept of free will vs. determinism has been discussed. Something that prevalent in the videos would not go unnoticed by the people on these forums. I've been reading for some time, and trust me, it isn't easy to find something that hasn't already been discussed.

Also, where exactly does magic come in? I think in the story about her parents, Bree mentioned the uncontrollable way of fate, not magic. I don't really think this religion is evil, or that there would be a ceremony performed that would concern controlling a girl against her will to commit murder...especially since Thelema advocates free will. Bree has prepared very diligently for this "ceremony" by dieting, exercising, and talking to Lucy. I don't see how these practices would be important for murdering Daniel.

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

The magic part comes in because Johann Weyer defended witches and said they were not responsible for their actions while under the influence of the devil. At least that's how I understand this article:

http://etext.virginia.edu/journals/EH/EH36/slattery1.html

And given that the creators seem to be interested in gifted girls, I have trouble seeing Bree completely as a victim.

So I though that if there is a victim, why couldn't it be Daniel? And given that I'm sure the ending will have something to do with free will, then maybe it's something that Bree does, not something that's done to her.

JustAnotherLonelyGirl. · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:

But if she is doing something under the influence of a magic spell, it would be against her free will, would it not?

I just don't see this going in such a dark direction. I don't anticipate any murderous or violent raping scenes at the ceremony (the rape mentioned in another thread).. or anyone eating anyone else.

If the ceremony is meant to be any of those things, I think something will happen to stop the ceremony.

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

"But if she is doing something under the influence of a magic spell, it would be against her free will, would it not?"

I'm not sure and I guess that question is what I find interesting. What is free will? How does one consider free will in the context of magic?

I too am not convinced that there will be violence. However the videos do have a bit of an ominious feel to them lately. What I do think is that the ending will somehow make us ask questions about free will.

Either that or I'm leaning towards a Sophie's World kind of plot. Perhaps because of the cermony Bree discovers that she is fictional?

JustAnotherLonelyGirl. · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject:

Hmm, not sure what you mean.. I've never heard of "Sophie's World" but that's an idea I haven't yet heard. I agree about the ominous feel of the more recent videos, but I think part of that comes from looking too much into it (based on Cassie's clues) and from the creators trying to pull ideas from the audience. They read the forums and draw plot ideas from it.. we invented Daniel and Bree's relationship.. and I think we may have taken part in the development of the darkness in the plot. But I still think that there will be a twist for the better, more lighter side of things at the end.. at least i hope so.

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

Amazon has a reasonable description of the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sophies-World-about-History-Philosophy/dp/0425152251

But you can also find out a lot just by googling it. It's about a girl on a phiilosphical journey. About half way through the book it is revealed to her that she isn't necessarily real. I even think that the Richard Feynman story about turtles might be talked about in Sophie's World, but I'm not sure.

I also read an article about the Thelemic religion that says that "The level of Master of the Temple is conferred upon the magician who has succeeded in crossing the Abyss, the boundary between what appears to be real and what truly is real" (see http://www.rosslyn.org/articles/crossing_the_abyss.htm).

And Bree is fictional... Does a fictional character have free will if they don't know that they are fictional?

At any rate, I hope that it isn't a violent ending either.

twjaniak · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject:

Free will can be directed and manipulated though. For example, Bree and Daniel were intended to remain just friends, but our wishes as fans changed the course of their fate. They became romantically involved, even if briefly. We manipulated her fate. Free will is about making own choices, but is it still free if the choices are determined by another. I wonder if this is one of the points of the series as a whole.
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taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

I'm wondering the same thing. It's why I started this thread.

It is very interesting that the creators are letting us alter her path.

twjaniak · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject:

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

I realize that it is a part of interactive story telling. However, it seems to be more interesting given that the topics of free will and determinism show up repeatedly in videos.

It seems to me that the creators may be playing with some kind of meta story.
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JustAnotherLonelyGirl. · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject:

According to those standards, though, it seems to me that free will is almost impossible to reach, being that aspects of life and society are inevitably going to effect our life choices. While I don't know much about Thelema, I have gathered from these forums that it supports Free Will. This, to me, contradicts the use of magic to control Bree's actions.

Maybe her alter-ego, Cassie, is more willing to commit murder.
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kilgoretroutlovesyou · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject:

Do What Thou Whilst.

I think that's Crowley's Thelema slogan. Bree does embody it sometimes, like when she decided to sneak out a bit behind her folk's back.

Free will is helping her find her inner-teenager. But then again, the idea of a "Helper", especially one brought in by your parents... That isn't too free will.

Looks like Bree is about to make some tough choices. Should make for some great watching. Psst, Bree. Don't turn out to be a bad guy. I'm sick of anyone not-Christian in entertainment being portrayed as evil. So please, do it for Kilgore, won't ya?
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Plurp · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject:

We're not capable of disputing the doctrine of free will.

taiya · Enthusiastic Fan Joined: 26 Sep 2006 Posts: 302

Ah, but maybe it's her higher self, or another self that gains access to her body through the magic and controls her actions?

And yes, Cassie is much darker. Bree liked killing bugs though.

Both the lonelygirl and cassie stories are amazingly well done though. I think it's great that both of them have sprung up together.

As a side note, I'm Canadian and was watching Corner Gas while I was online tonight and in the story, someone set up tip jars asking the question "Free Will" or "Determinism". It's amazing how once a topic is in your mind it seems to pop up everywhere.
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