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Could the ceremony be a Mormon Temple Wedding?
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Sfonzarelli
Devoted Fan

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:14 am Post subject:

Penny wrote:

Aleister Crowley doesn't have ties to our religion. We don't follow his teachings whatsoever.

Your loss
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Penny
Lonely Fan

Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 154

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:14 am Post subject:

Sfonzarelli wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote:

The cross is an important symbol to Christians, and it represents his life, not death. [...] No, that was actually a Swastika, which happens to be another occultic symbol, like the pentagrams and inverted pentagrams.

Penny wrote:

A swastica is a twisted and perverted version of the cross. You don't have to like it but it's true.

You are both totally misinformed. The swastika is a religious symbol that has been used for thousands of years by the religious practices of cultures throughout the world; China, India, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, Pre-Christian Europe, the Native Americans, to name a few examples off the top of my head. In all of India and East Asia, swastikas are predominately recognized as a symbol of Dharmic religions and not of Nazism. In fact, it's only in the Western world where the swastika carries immediate connotations of Nazism.

The cross is a symbol that predates Christianity significantly and would be considered an occult symbol by the same standards that would consider a swastika to be an occult symbol.

Yeah, I caught that after I posted what you just quoted. I checked it on wikipedia to make sure that was right, I should have come back and edited it. It's funny that I was taught that in public school in Colorado. Crazy history teacher. Anyway, I couldn't find why the nazis adopted it to be their symbol especially since it was used in other religions from Asia.

Last edited by Penny on Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total

Penny
Lonely Fan

Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 154

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:16 am Post subject:

Sfonzarelli wrote:

Penny wrote:

Aleister Crowley doesn't have ties to our religion. We don't follow his teachings whatsoever.

Your loss

I don't know if this was meant to be funny but it made me laugh. Very Happy

Sfonzarelli
Devoted Fan

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:33 am Post subject:

Penny wrote:

Anyway, I couldn't find why the nazis adopted it to be their symbol especially since it was used in other religions from Asia.

The answer is complicated. The Aryans were an important part of Nazi mythology. The Aryans were people described as having lighter skin than the people of India, who introduced the Vedic religion to India. In actuality, the Aryans were the Persians (Iranians), but 19th and early 20th century white supremacists randomly decided that Nordic Europeans were Aryans, even though that makes absolutely no sense. So there was a lot of Orientalist chic in Nazi Germany - a lot of Nazi mystics were into Hinduism. (However, their relationship with India was a love-hate one. They committed genocide against the Indian-descended gypsies, and Nazi propaganda crtizcizes England of being to engrossed in the "Oriental" culture of India) The use of the swastika predates the Nazis and was actually used by previous German folk movements, and Hitler may have gotten it from the Thule Society, so it may come from pre-Christian European use of the symbol. Or it may come from the use of the symbol on Christian churches. Also, Hitler was really into boyscout mythology and stories of European colonists of the Americas fighting the evil red men, so he may have picked it up from that.
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tannhaus
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:36 am Post subject:

Penny wrote:

Anyway, I couldn't find why the nazis adopted it to be their symbol especially since it was used in other religions from Asia.

White supremicists had an "Aryan invasion theory" where they believed that white people were actually responsible for much egyptian and indian progress. So, I would assume that's why they took the swastika from India.

Sfonzarelli
Devoted Fan

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:

tannhaus wrote:

Penny wrote:

Anyway, I couldn't find why the nazis adopted it to be their symbol especially since it was used in other religions from Asia.

Yeah, according to the Nazis, Northern Europeans were responsible for the achievements of Greece, Egypt, Persia, India, and China, because they conquered those nations and started civilization. Africans, East-Asians, Indians, Middle Easterners, Southern Europeans, etc. were incapable of being civilized on their own, they would have needed the help of the Nordic people. (They offered no explainations for Mesoamerica-Peru, of course) Of course, I think the Nazis actually claimed that they were supposed to learn the folly of the Aryans, because they cohabitated too much with the Indians.

Edit: Of course, when Germany allied with Japan, they had to completely rewrite their racial mysticism to bring them into the fold.
_________________
I've got a Morse Code anagram for you to decode, Cassie:

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JerseyJohnny
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 377

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:22 am Post subject:

Sfonzarelli wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote:

So Fonzie, if you think I left anything out, please let me know. Oh, and it would help if you research this stuff for yourself before blindly accusing anyone of "trolling". It makes you come across as especially ignorant.

I don't think I accused you of being wrong. Just being boring.

I never said you accused me of being wrong, why don't you re-read what I said you accused me of, it's right up there above. And if you find this so boring, then why would you read it, much less respond to any of it? Your actions belie your words.

Sfonzarelli wrote:

For example, how is any of this that big of a deal? I'll admit it's atypical for Christian organization, but the concept of a henotheistic Judeo-Christian God is as old as Judaism, and the concept of Jesus being romantically tied to Mary and Martha is as old as stories about Jesus. How does that make Mormons into Aleister Crowley?

Nobody said this is "that big of a deal". You ASKED for sources, I provided them. These are not atypical for a Christian organization, in fact they are actually heretical. These are what separate non-Christians from Christians, and that is agreed upon throughout orthodox Christianity, from Baptists to Catholics to Orthodox to Methodists. The whole point is that Mormons are not "Christian", their founders and leaders make it clear that they are against "Christianity", and it is a recent phenomena that the Mormons consider themselves "Christian" at all.

Why are you being so duplicitous that you ask for sources and then you say it's "boring" and "no big deal"??? YOU asked for it, apparently it's interesting and a big deal enough for you to have asked. How duplicitous can you be???

Sfonzarelli wrote:

Be more shocking plz

Shocking? Why? I think what's shocking is your inability to understand any of this. OK, come to think of it, that's actually not so shocking.

EDIT: "cleaned" up offensive terms.

Last edited by JerseyJohnny on Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total

Kasdeja
Hymn of One

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:26 am Post subject:

Nope, no rule breaking posts in here.

Nora Volkova
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 332

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:27 am Post subject:

JJ, chill. Or no chocolate chip cookies for you. _________________ CALL BORIS, DANIEL

JerseyJohnny
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 377

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:20 am Post subject:

Penny wrote:

I am sure you did get your info at www.lds.org...and of course you don't have a bias opinion that totally twisted what you actually read.

Good, I'm glad you realize that I have no biased opinion.

Penny wrote:

as far as having crosses, I have seen many a cross with Christ dying on them...so the dying body of Christ is there to help you remember his life?

That's called a "crucifix", my dear. A Cross is different, it is empty and represents a risen Christ, life over death, victory over sin and the grave. The Cross is directly called the "power" of God in the Bible and is repeatedly used in the Bible as the symbol for the basis of Christianity. It IS odd that the Mormons choose to incorrectly interpret it and then prevent it from entering any of their buildings, documents, etc. while they are comfortable with occultic symbols that are commonly associated with witchcraft, thelema, paganism, and other occult religions.

Penny wrote:

A swastica is a twisted and perverted version of the cross. You don't have to like it but it's true.

The swastika is a symbol which dates back to 5,000 BC. That's BEFORE Christ. It is not a variation of the Christian Cross whatsoever.

Penny wrote:

Its funny that mormons haven't been considered Christians ever since we stopped being part of the Christian coalition (sp?). Our beliefs haven't changed any...maybe some other christians are a little bitter?

Mormons were never considered Christian by any Christians. Christians believe in and worship Jesus Christ only, and believe that He is the one and only True God that has ever existed for all eternity. There are no other gods in Christianity, there never have been and never will be. That is an essential Christian belief.

Also, from their beginnings, the Mormon religion's founders and leaders made it clear that they were NOT part of Christianity (all emphasis added mine):

Quote:

“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God.” (Brigham Young, founder of CoJCoLDS - Utah, Journal of Discourses, Vol 8, pg 171).

“Do the Christian world know whether God has eyes to see, ears to hear, or hands, or a body? They are as ignorant of the true God as are those islanders, and all whom we call heathen.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.195).

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (Mormon Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 25).

“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense….and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.” (Mormon Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 167).

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing…Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.” (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol 13, pg 225).

“Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. The true Church is not a dead branch from a dead tree; it is a living tree planted again by revelation in the vineyard of the Lord, and it shall grow and flourish long after the vineyard has been burned and every dead branch and vine has been consumed as stubble.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pg 548).

I can go on and on and on, if you like I'll provide you with more quotes. YOUR religion's founders made it clear that you people are NOT to be associated with "Christians" or "Christianity". So why do mormons all of a sudden WANT to be accepted as "Christians"?? WHO KNOWS??? My thinking is that they feel left out and think this will gain them acceptance, along with the hopes that they can win more converts if they're seen as Christians rather than as the anti-Christian religion that they are.

In any case, it's clear from the leaders and founders of Mormonism that they are DIFFERENT from Christianity. Whether you want to say it's that you are the only "real Christians" and nobody else is or that you are a different religion, there is a distinction being made between Mormonism and the entire world of Christendom, and that distinction was first made by the Mormon leaders themselves.

Penny wrote:

look, jersey johnny, I have seen you attack many beliefs here. I don't mind if it's all in good fun (like your last post). I have a sense of humor and it's all good. I, like others here, don't like my religion made out to be what it isn't.

I have only somewhat "attacked" the religin of Thelema, and that was in good fun, or at least that's how I meant it. I haven't attacked any other religions, however, so I'm not sure what the "many beliefs" are that you say you've seen me "attack". And I'm not trying to make your religion out to be something it isn't, I'm trying to keep Christianity from being made out to be something it isn't.

Penny wrote:

I am not saying that all LDS people are great people. I have met my share of horrible LDS people. At the same time, we are happy how we live. We strive to improve ourselves at all times. We do believe in Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father and the Holy spirit. I don't think we should be burned at the stake for not believing in the holy trinity (that they are all the same entity). For us, they are separate but one in purpose.

Many LDS people are great people, you seem to be one of them. And you're perfectly free to believe what you want to believe. The fact is, however, that the entire world of Christianity rejects the LDS religion as being "Christian", and this is based on the core beliefs of Christianity which are shared by all the Christian sects. It's just that simple. You mentioned in another post that Warren Jeffs is not LDS. Well, who are you and your religion to burn them at the stake for what they believe? They believe they are LDS, it's in their religion's name even. For the same reason that your religion can decide what groups are or aren't LDS, Christianity can decide what groups are or aren't Christian.

Penny wrote:

I am not even touching the whole occult issue...all I am going to say is we aren't an occult (even if you and a billion other people think so). Plenty could be said about the catholic church (it also has a horrible history) but you don't see me trying to rip it apart. I don't know what else I can say except please try to be more respectful (at least civil). Just because you don't know me doesn't mean I don't have feelings.

The occult issue is based on your own religion's teachings and practices. They believe in principles that are common in pagan and occult religions, and are foreign in Christianity. Such principles include their poly/henotheism, their believe in eternal progression (man will become god), their belief in "hidden knowledge" which can be revealed through works, their belief that a man's works will be the reason or a reason for his salvation/progression/enlightenment. All of those concepts are key beliefs in the Mormon religion and foreign to Christianity.

Penny wrote:

Also, the ceremony isn't an LDS wedding. I know for a fact. You would be quite surprised how simple and short a sealing in the temple actually is. There is not speaking in another language (especially enochian - I didn't know what the heck that was until I started following the lonelygirl15 series). There is no walking around (like is supposed to happen in Bree's ceremony). It's plain, simple and special to me and countless other members of my church.

Well, I know now that Bree's ceremony is not an LDS wedding, but at the time I suggested it could be I had reason to believe it COULD be. I don't know what goes on in a sealing ceremony, that's not made public, along with a lot of other hidden/secret mormon practices and rituals. That's just another way the Mormon religion is occultic. Nothing in Christianity is secret or hidden; you can walk into ANY Christian Church, ANY service, and see for yourself what is happening. Try it, you'll see - Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox - ALL Christian Churches are completely open to visitors attending any and all of their ceremonies and/or rituals. The Mormons, like the Thelemites and other occult groups, have secret, closed-off rituals and ceremonies where they do not permit outsiders under any circumstance.

Anyway, I hope you realize this is not an attack on the Mormon religion. I was accused by you of making things up or lying about the Mormon religion, and so I'm sharing my beliefs and the evidence I have for them with you so that you can see that I wasn't making things up. You might disagree with me, and that's fine; it's everyone's choice to beleive what he or she wants to believe. My point is that I was wrongly accused of being an "attacker" simply because of how I see the Mormon religion in regards to the occult and Christianity.

tannhaus
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:

JerseyJohnny wrote:

Anyway, I hope you realize this is not an attack on the Mormon religion. I was accused by you of making things up or lying about the Mormon religion, and so I'm sharing my beliefs and the evidence I have for them with you so that you can see that I wasn't making things up. You might disagree with me, and that's fine; it's everyone's choice to beleive what he or she wants to believe. My point is that I was wrongly accused of being an "attacker" simply because of how I see the Mormon religion in regards to the occult and Christianity.

I totally disagree. Just because you spread someone else's lies does not remove any responsibility for truth from you.

And, in so much as you can believe whatever you wish, it's outside the bounds of polite society and manners to confront others with your ignorance. Example: you might believe black people are beneath you. Is someone going to come and haul you away for believing that or even saying it? No. Is it RIGHT to do either? No...it's ignorance. If you confront someone else with your beliefs, no matter how much you think them to be true, what have you done? You have ATTACKED them.

It's ignorance, it's bad manners, and it's wrong...regardless of whether or not you have the right to ignorance.

JerseyJohnny
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 377

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject:

tannhaus wrote:

You are actually mixing up two issues here - ignorance and beliefs. Your contention is that my beliefs are "ignorant", as indicated by your claim that I "spread...lies". So the first thing I'm going to address is to ask of you to identify for me where I have lied and for you to address that directly, and we can talk about that on its own. After that, if you have then proven "ignorance" on my part, then you can move on to your argument that my position was one of ignorance and it was wrong for me to confront someone in ignorance.

As far as I'm concerned, I've demonstrated perfectly logical reasoning as to why I made the claims I made, so I did not "confront others with...ignorance", but rather with logic and reason.

For me to claim that the Mormon religion is not Christian, and that this is my belief, and then for me to go further and provide much evidence to back up my belief, is hardly "ignorant" nor does it constitute an "attack". In fact, it's a defense against an attack made on me whereby I was accused of being wrong in my assertions that Mormonism is more occultic as a religion and hardly Christian.

Your example of "black people are beneath you" doesn't apply here, and is clearly an attempt on your part to sensationalize what I have said by equating it with such a ridiculous, ignorant, sensationalistic point of view.

tannhaus wrote:

If you confront someone else with your beliefs, no matter how much you think them to be true, what have you done? You have ATTACKED them.

It's ignorance, it's bad manners, and it's wrong...regardless of whether or not you have the right to ignorance.

Now this part I find especially laughable, coming from the man who saw fit to "correct" and "educate" everyone else about their beliefs using his own beliefs as the basis for it. If what you say above is true, then you are the one who has ATTACKED most, if not all, of the people that you have responded to on this board regarding the Thelema religion.

Hey Tannhaus, the Hare Krishnas called - they said they want their dignity back! Laughing

Kasdeja
Hymn of One

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject:

Can we make a separate thread and label it "Pissing match"?

JerseyJohnny
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 377

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

Kasdeja wrote:

Can we make a separate thread and label it "Pissing match"?

Hey, kasdeja, here's a thought...

If you don't like what I say, don't seek out my posts!!! WOW!!! Shocked

What a concept!!!

Of all the posts in these forums, it's funny how you always seem to find the ones that you can go to to make sarcastic, pompous statements about how the others are beneath you for arguing!!! How DO you do it!! Laughing

Kasdeja
Hymn of One

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject:

I don't seek out your posts, I'm usually already IN a post before you come in and shit all over them and everyone in them. No cookies for you, you've been a bad little Johnny boy.

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