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Lonelygirl15 Forum Index -> Concerns and Complaints

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VanillaFlava
Casual Observer

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject:

Lurker wrote:

I'll agree that it didn't need to be as powerful as it apparently is. I think in some ways they wrote themselves into a corner a few times because of that.

That's exactly it. Only, instead of backtracking, or maybe dealing with that in one fell swoop the show is spinning around itself in ever widening circles of ridiculousness. I think that is what several people here lament.

Lurker wrote:

Isn't it highly character focused now? Almost every episode focuses on the characters' interactions, thoughts, motivations, reactions, etc.

If you count dialogue like 'Oh I'm so bored, so I bring my pet monkey around to the kick-ass camp, but really, I just realised I'm not a child anymore, so I am so confused' as character focus and development, then yes. But really, it is not. The characters are just two-dimensonal puppets at this point disaffectionally commenting on this plot swing or that.

Lurker wrote:

She was very naive. She let herself get injected without questioning what she was getting injected with or what it was supposed to do, and she willingly went along with a plan to trick Daniel into thinking the ceremony was on Oct. 12 - apparently just because she'd been asked to.

You give her (and the writers) too little credit. What she felt or thought and what she said on camera are two different things. I think on that first topic you could tell, she was not at all happy with the injections or accepting all this without question. The fact that she got denfensive to a concerned Daniel for asking her about it, is a very believable reaction from someone torn between following the wishes of authority over conscious doubt. I don't think she was so naive even back then. But I don't want to belabour this individual point.

You bring up a very nice example, nonetheless. In this exact conflict we see very subtle, and very believable moral turmoil and character development. That was good story-telling. Believable tension, the whole Meeting in the Park episode really evoked a sense of mounting dread in me, and evoking a real emotional response is the best storytelling can aspire to.

Lurker wrote:

Where's the evidence that these camps are anything more than a spot in the woods where Tachyon throws down a tent? Because all we know so far is that these camps have trees and Tachyon's thrown down a tent in the one she and Bree are currently staying in.

True, you might totally be right. However, it is presented like a terrorist (freedom fighter's) training camp nonetheless. Words aren't neutral. There is always allusion and always association. When someone uses the words 'camps' and 'combat training' I do not associate a tent & marshmellow firepit. I wager few people would do these days. I also do not believe this was a careless choice of words on part of the writers. Or they would really be clueless about writing in the first place, which I do not think we should assume.

Lurker wrote:

I don't see what's so wildly unrealistic about a covert operative having places selected to hide in the wilderness if she needed to. I don't remember anyone calling b.s. on Strider in "The Lord of the Rings" over Weathertop - and that place kind of stuck out if you knew it existed.

I do not think constantly invoking Tolkien as comparison to LG15 storytelling is very appropriate nor helpful. LotR is a fantasy moral tale told using the tools of epic drama (and with epic I do infer the literal meaning). Tolkien has virtually no characterisation apart from the necessary archetypes of classical drama. You don't call bullshit on Strider for the same reason you don't call bullshit on Homer's Odysseus, or Nibelungen's Siegfried or even Han Solo, although you absolutely could about every 15 minutes or so. Thatis precisely the point Hyemew is making.

Do you seriously want LG15 to be an epic struggle of light vs. darkness, freedom vs. slavery, insert concept vs. insert concept?

Do you think George Lucas should maybe be brought in as the next PM or head writer?

I mean seriously, there are a lot os misconceptions here about drama and storytelling. I mean maybe you are right, but then seriously I have very different expectations from you on what kind of storytelling LG15 should deliver, or what would bring back it's appeal.
_________________

Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it.

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:

VanillaFlava wrote:

What would you suggest as a solution? Really, I think doing anything to remove the Order or greatly downsize them at this point might be detrimental (depending on how long Mesh and the others want to keep them around, of course). Everything's been about/because of them so far. To downsize or remove them now could either require the resolution of the series or the introduction of some new ongoing issues to face (after the Order had been dealt with, of course).

What do you have in mind?

VanillaFlava wrote:

What were they before but kids hanging out in a bedroom performing planned skits, though? There wasn't a plot back then for them to react to.

VanillaFlava wrote:

You bring up a very nice example, nonetheless. In this exact conflict we see very subtle, and very believable moral turmoil and character development. That was good story-telling.

We've still seen that kind of stuff, though - the only thing is that as each situation mounted on top of the one before, it became clearer that Bree turned out to be someone most of us didn't like very much (hopefully Tachyon will rehabilitate her). I don't think that necessarily means they told the story badly - at least not if they really did want to make her out to be dislikable for a while (mission accomplished if that was the objective). If that was an accident, then it's bad.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Believable tension, the whole Meeting in the Park episode really evoked a sense of mounting dread in me, and evoking a real emotional response is the best storytelling can aspire to.

Some vids have gotten an emotional reaction from me, but I don't remember that one really doing it. Different strokes and all that.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Words aren't neutral. There is always allusion and always association. When someone uses the words 'camps' and 'combat training' I do not associate a tent & marshmellow firepit. I wager few people would do these days. I also do not believe this was a careless choice of words on part of the writers. Or they would really be clueless about writing in the first place, which I do not think we should assume.

Why take somebody to a special training facility to do handstands, though? You could do that anywhere. We didn't even hear about so much as an obstacle course.

I understand the point you're making, but I didn't see anything to indicate that there's a military-like training grounds tucked back there.

VanillaFlava wrote:

I do not think constantly invoking Tolkien as comparison to LG15 storytelling is very appropriate nor helpful.

It's easy to refer to for examples.

VanillaFlava wrote:

You don't call bullshit on Strider for the same reason you don't call bullshit on Homer's Odysseus, or Nibelungen's Siegfried or even Han Solo, although you absolutely could about every 15 minutes or so. Thatis precisely the point Hyemew is making.

Tachyon doesn't come off as a character like that to you? She's mysterious (we don't even know what she looks like), she's supposed to be bad-ass (like those characters), and is the older, more experienced kind of character who maintains a supporting role to the lead protagonist(s) who have to mature and find their strength.

Tachyon is largely an archetype kind of character (so far).

My point before, though, was that we don't question Strider for having places to hide out in the wilderness (given his profession, it made sense). I don't see why it doesn't make the same amount of sense with Tachyon.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Do you seriously want LG15 to be an epic struggle of light vs. darkness, freedom vs. slavery, insert concept vs. insert concept?

Where's this question coming from?

VanillaFlava wrote:

Do you think George Lucas should maybe be brought in as the next PM or head writer?

I'd especially like to know where this question is coming from.

VanillaFlava wrote:

I mean maybe you are right, but then seriously I have very different expectations from you on what kind of storytelling LG15 should deliver, or what would bring back it's appeal.

It's debatable - and varies from person to person - as to whether its appeal is even gone. Some - such as myself - would say the appeal vanished a long time ago but made a comeback, and that right now, we're looking at the best stage of storytelling the series has seen yet.

HyeMew
Moderator

Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 797

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject:

Lurker wrote:

What were they before but kids hanging out in a bedroom performing planned skits, though? There wasn't a plot back then for them to react to.

Wow, are you kidding me? Just wow.
You go watch Lazy Eye and get back to me.

(I bolded the most important part, I kind of explain all over the place here.)
This is what I think sums up the current problems with the series today. Each episode in the early days, while maybe the plot wasn't well defined (at least not epic in nature, which is apparently the only thing you want. Lord of the Rings is called FANTASY for a reason, I didn't think Bree is supposed to be fantasy.), stuck out. Each episode had it's own inherent deep meaning. It wasn't usually part of a huge plot, but they were they each encapsulated 2 minutes of greatness. You didn't really need to know the whole plot to get something out of it. You can tune into almost any of the first 20 episodes without even knowing what LonelyGirl is and come away with something meaningful and understood.
Ever since they went on the road or so, each episode is becoming more and more linear. Things are straight forward. This is good vs. evil, go Bree. Basically each episode takes us a little further down the rabbit hole. Except for the occassional dramatic event, like Bree's dad getting shot, there really isn't all that important with each episode.
This really stuck out for me at the cabin. I basically tuned in every day for a couple of weeks, and this is what I got over 10 to 15 episodes:

*We're at the cabin! Set number 23 since we took to the road!
*Jonas walks in the snow with Bree- uh oh Daniel is mad!
*Daniel hates Jonas!
*Jonas likes Bree? Daniel sad/mad! Hatred!
*"We had a brodown", it's all good now. Pretend like the past three episodes never happened and let's stick together
*Bree: I think Jonas is evil. I will somehow tie him up without ever addressing how I was single-handedly able to tie up a boxer. Did I secret stuff knock out gas into my backpack when I left home?
*Daniel: I don't think we should tie him up.
*Bree: WE SHOULD KEEP HIM TIED UP FOREVER! *MAD CACKLE*
*Jonas: *escapes*, Bree: shit!
*Jonas: OK, I'm done hiding, time to go back in and make nice with Daniel.
*We're leaving! Time to go on to set number 24!
*Bree: I'm sorry. Now let's go to the vet!

There you go. OK basically all that happened in those episodes was first Daniel hating Jonas, then Bree hating Jonas, and more or less now they're all cool again. The only real thing to happen was Jonas finding that document we haven't been able to read yet. I mean look at all that useless drama. It took WEEKS for that to unfold. There are no real value to those episodes except to cause drama and keep events unfolding. There really is no characterization, it's just drama. During that time, all of the characters had insane emotional swings all over the place, and that was just during one concentrated time. The people at Anchor Cove have documented at least 5-10 different Brees that have shown themselves since she left her room, each of them vastly different. And what good was all that mood swinging, if in the end they ALWAYS end up as bros again?

These episodes are just one thing after another, with little to no external value. They can't stand alone and I have no desire to watch them again once I know what happened. This stands in stark contrast to the early ones in which I not only remember just about all of them distinctively, but I love to go back to watch and enjoy. This "epic" that you seem to want, Lurker, does not work in vlog format, as it ends up as the-same-old-shit one-after-another. Early LG worked so well because it was perfectly tailored to vlogging. The epic format however just leaves us with what is one movie cut up into a million different pieces, episodes with abolsutely no inherent value.
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Check out: Funniest LG15-related episode... ever?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ6kBdNegfs

VanillaFlava
Casual Observer

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject:

Lurker wrote:

What would you suggest as a solution?

That is a very tough call, without even knowing what they have in mind.

But, they stated that they actually wanted this to be interactive storytelling, or at least allow fan creations to reside within their mythology. So, I think I would have focused more on creating a tapestry that other people could paint on. What they have done is forced the LG15 universe into a global conspiracy pre-fab. Hard to escape that, as you said before.

I think I would really take the characters to some kind of momentary retreat away from the reach of The Evil Empire. From there on, you could play it all kinds of different ways, maybe even that the whole Order thing is only so much paranoia. Then again, killing her Dad was also pretty much a strong-handed movement, that really leaves little room for re-interpretation.

I'd still take them away from it for a while. I think the Order and the Religion were most effective when we built the horrible truths in our sordid imaginations rather than gunplay in a parking garage.

Lurker wrote:

What were they before but kids hanging out in a bedroom performing planned skits, though? There wasn't a plot back then for them to react to.

I think it is ironic that one of the first notable commentary on the LG15 phenomenon was that the introduction of plot was what killed their winning formula in the first place. I tend to agree. I wished they had not switched from character driven vlogs to well-established short-from drama. Plotting could have been introduced in more suprising ways than what we have seen and see right now.

Lurker wrote:

How could this not have been an accident? There is no character development that reveals this 'true' side of Bree to us. Just two mis-matched approaches of storytelling colliding, which resulted in what we have right now.

Lurker wrote:

Some vids have gotten an emotional reaction from me, but I don't remember that one really doing it. Different strokes and all that.

Sure, agreed. I just enjoy subtle, surreal not necessarily plot-driven drama with a heavy element of mystery. There's a reason Coop's my avatar Smile

Lurker wrote:

Why take somebody to a special training facility to do handstands, though? You could do that anywhere. We didn't even hear about so much as an obstacle course.

True enough. Then again, you probably speak from a position of much deeper immersion into Tachyon et. al. than I or, I wager a majority of the casual audience of LG15. Training & Camps have strong associations, unless you are willing to concede more 'accidental' storytelling, which I chose not to assume for this.

Lurker wrote:

VanillaFlava wrote:

I do not think constantly invoking Tolkien as comparison to LG15 storytelling is very appropriate nor helpful.

It's easy to refer to for examples.

Sure, but that wasn't the point. My statement was that LotR is totally inappropriate as comparison, as it is a completely different kind of drama than LG15. Regardless of content, it is not even the same form of storytelling. So, mentioning it does not add anything to the point you were trying to make, in my opinion.

Lurker wrote:

My point before, though, was that we don't question Strider for having places to hide out in the wilderness (given his profession, it made sense). I don't see why it doesn't make the same amount of sense with Tachyon.

Ok, I see what you wanted to point out with this, but I guess in the end, we just have very different associations about the things mentioned in the episode and the imagined nature of the character. Can't see us resolving this bit, and like I said, I actively tried to screen out Tachyon et. al. as much as possible from my consumption of LG15, and hence know next to nothing about anything related to it. I also do not like the integration of the character, hence my self-imposed censorship. But yeah, I cannot win that one, if they are hell-bent on making this canon, and giving it center stage.

Lurker wrote:

VanillaFlava wrote:

Do you seriously want LG15 to be an epic struggle of light vs. darkness, freedom vs. slavery, insert concept vs. insert concept?

Where's this question coming from?

Simple. They have dragged LG15 from being a mystery vlog/teen show into an epic clash of ever-widening proportions. Hyemew's original post compares it to the simplicity of the Star Wars mythology. You mention LotR (which is pretty much the same mold of classical drama) and so I just asked out right, if that is preceived to be a good mold for LG15. I see now, you were trying to make an entirely different point with the reference. So, we were talking right past each other.

Same goes to Lucas for obvious reasons.

Lurker wrote:

Good for you. I do not want to belittle or spoil anyone's enjoyment of the current show. I just feel, it is nothing special at this point.

I guess there are several evolutions (or in my mind mutations) to the show. Here's my brief mental map:

LG15 the teen vlog mystery
Surprising, very original and effective, often self-contained storytelling. Creating a enticing tapestry for people to add to, subtle elements of plot

LG15 and The Order of Abortive Ceremonies
Still pretty entertaining, now more heavily plotted short-form drama, with some elements of the original vlog format

The LG15 road-show of 3 plots per minute (now with 15% more Black Helicopters!)
Very disjointed episodes, wholly plot-driven, individual episodes nothing more than vignettes, making no sense taken out of context. Endless opening of plot threads with virtually no resolution, complete abandonment of the vlog format other than contrivance to present the action.

Now, I loved the first stage, I enjoyed the second stage (which was very brief compared to the other two), and I am absolutely untouched by the third, current one.

I mean, what we see now, is no different from anything I could rent from the straight-to-video rack at Blockbuster, only it is hacked into 3 minute clips.

I do not mean to belittle what has been produced overall. There is good material, writing and acting alike. It is just that the show has devolved from an original, surprising use of new media, to basically standard TV drama with a rather disappointing (clichéd, epic) plot.

So, to sum it all up. I think what set LG15 apart was the original format and way of storytelling. What it has become is stuff that has been around for ages, just delivered in a different way.

EDIT: Scary. I guess Hyemew is my Kharmic Cassie. He said exactly what I wanted to say, while writing this.

I think I would never say this, BUT over the hollow snippets of meandering mish-mash we are seeing now, I wish I could have Cassie back. Through all the craziness it now seems she actually had the edge while the main attraction went down the path most trodden.
_________________

Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it.

HyeMew
Moderator

Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 797

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject:

Perfection illustration here of an example of what is wrong with the series:

HyeMew wrote:

*We're at the cabin! Set number 23 since we took to the road!
*Jonas walks in the snow with Bree- uh oh Daniel is mad!
*Daniel hates Jonas!
*Jonas likes Bree? Daniel sad/mad! Hatred!
*"We had a brodown", it's all good now. Pretend like the past three episodes never happened and let's stick together
*Bree: I think Jonas is evil. I will somehow tie him up without ever addressing how I was single-handedly able to tie up a boxer. Did I secret stuff knock out gas into my backpack when I left home?
*Daniel: I don't think we should tie him up.
*Bree: WE SHOULD KEEP HIM TIED UP FOREVER! *MAD CACKLE*
*Jonas: *escapes*, Bree: shit!
*Jonas: OK, I'm done hiding, time to go back in and make nice with Daniel.
*We're leaving! Time to go on to set number 24!
*Bree: I'm sorry. Now let's go to the vet!

Now, if this was anything like the old episodes, you'd be able to tune into any of those sections and wouldn't need much knowledge of what happened before. Each episode, while they did have some plot and weren't necesarily utterly independent (that'd be asking too much), is able to stand alone pretty well. Each day was different with Bree, and you really got the sense you were tuning into each day in a girl's life, NOT what it is now, tuning into two minute segments of one big long movie. And yet, all the old ones were still ENTERTAINING!

Lazy Eye will always be there for someone to tune in to or just watch completely on its own. You don't need to know anything more to enjoy it. Can you say the same for this episode for example?:
"*"We had a brodown", it's all good now. Pretend like the past three episodes never happened and let's stick together"

OK what good is that? Who is going to fondly reminice "oh yes, do you guys remember the time Jonas said he had a brodown with Daniel and that they were friends?" It's nothing more than a segment in a longer linear plot which is of absolutely no worth if it were to stand alone. Vlogs are supposed to be, more or less, stand alone. That is not to say you can't have a plot which runs through all of them, certainly, but at least some of them need some stand-alone-ability. This has not been there for like the past 100 episodes by now. I also think this limits the ability to pick up fans. I mean if they just randomly tuned into an episode and saw: "*Jonas: OK, I'm done hiding, time to go back in and make nice with Daniel." What good is that to them? It's totally random, they'd learn nothing, and would probably have to do some major LGpedia to follow every twist and turn in the plot since Bree left home to actually understand. Meanwhile at the same time, if you got spartan about it I bet you could sum up the entire plot since Bree left home into about three sentences, as its literally just been: Run away here, watchers hang around, we run away, watchers hang around, we run away, we meet Jonas, daniel leaves, daniel returns, Bree meets her dad, her dad is killed, rinse lather repeat with the running away again, with a welcome Aunt Alex at the end.
_________________
Check out: Funniest LG15-related episode... ever?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ6kBdNegfs

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject:

HyeMew wrote:

Wow, are you kidding me? Just wow.
You go watch Lazy Eye and get back to me.

I'm back.

Not seeing anything there that opens the door to a plethora of other characters, plot devices, and other world elements that would constitute a mythos. I see Bree talking about a medical condition she experienced as a baby, and "explaining" having brought it up in the vaguest way possible (some unidentified spat with her parents) - and then I see a small monkey puppet dancing.

HyeMew wrote:

Each episode in the early days, while maybe the plot wasn't well defined (at least not epic in nature, which is apparently the only thing you want.

HyeMew wrote:

...this "epic" that you seem to want, Lurker...

I'm going to say this as nicely as my annoyance will allow: Give. It. A. Rest. You can say that as many times as you want, but it's not going to change reality. Why are you trying to shove words into my mouth? You're the only one who seems to be equating the concept of conflict to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields or something similar.

(Turned out I said it pretty darn nicely, after all.)

HyeMew wrote:

Lord of the Rings is called FANTASY for a reason

LOTR is categorized under "fantasy" for a reason, yes: It involves supernatural elements as key aspects of its plot and/or setting, and has a distinct "old world" feeling and themes.

HyeMew wrote:

I didn't think Bree is supposed to be fantasy.

I don't recall anyone saying it was. I don't recall anyone saying that it needed to be some grand, world-shattering epic to involve conflict either. Would I be correct to conclude that you're now equating "epic" to "fantasy"? Because that doesn't work. They aren't the same. At all.

HyeMew wrote:

Each episode had it's own inherent deep meaning. It wasn't usually part of a huge plot, but they were they each encapsulated 2 minutes of greatness. You didn't really need to know the whole plot to get something out of it. You can tune into almost any of the first 20 episodes without even knowing what LonelyGirl is and come away with something meaningful and understood.

That seems like a lot of subjective assertion to me. The only part that isn't subject to opinion is that they were self-contained (which doesn't necessarily mean great).

HyeMew wrote:

This really stuck out for me at the cabin. I basically tuned in every day for a couple of weeks, and this is what I got over 10 to 15 episodes:

*We're at the cabin! Set number 23 since we took to the road!
*Jonas walks in the snow with Bree- uh oh Daniel is mad!
*Daniel hates Jonas!
*Jonas likes Bree? Daniel sad/mad! Hatred!
*"We had a brodown", it's all good now. Pretend like the past three episodes never happened and let's stick together
*Bree: I think Jonas is evil. I will somehow tie him up without ever addressing how I was single-handedly able to tie up a boxer. Did I secret stuff knock out gas into my backpack when I left home?
*Daniel: I don't think we should tie him up.
*Bree: WE SHOULD KEEP HIM TIED UP FOREVER! *MAD CACKLE*
*Jonas: *escapes*, Bree: shit!
*Jonas: OK, I'm done hiding, time to go back in and make nice with Daniel.
*We're leaving! Time to go on to set number 24!
*Bree: I'm sorry. Now let's go to the vet!

You're overlooking all the character exploration or development in there:

-Bree's inability to handle romantic or serious situations in an appropriate manner was emphasized - the latter undoubtedly being related to her diminishing confidence in her own abilities, and just as likely playing a role in her eventually deciding to do something about it by getting Tachyon to come take her and train her
-Daniel showed how much he cared for Bree (he was willing to do pretty much anything she asked, including something he didn't believe was right), but then finally got the courage to stand up to her; apparently he also started moving beyond his romantic fixation with her at this time
-Jonas showed that he's either got a big heart or that he needs to be watched like a hawk (depending on how you look at his willingness to continue taking care of Bree)

If you look at my opening response in this post, you can see that it's just as easy to chop the videos you see as highly meaningful into what appears to be completely insignificant chunks of crap (though I wasn't doing that to be an ass or make a point; you asked me to discuss it and I gave you my honest opinion of it - though I didn't think it was crap; just saying that I've personally never seen anything insightful or meaningful in that video).

HyeMew wrote:

Each day was different with Bree, and you really got the sense you were tuning into each day in a girl's life, NOT what it is now, tuning into two minute segments of one big long movie. And yet, all the old ones were still ENTERTAINING!

I never got that sense. You know what sense I got? That I was tuning into a new scripted (possibly rehearsed), highly edited, skit in a girl's life. Hell, many vloggers (even some of YouTube's most popular) who aren't involved in big productions and are actually talking about their real life still plan out their videos and edit them a lot.

HyeMew wrote:

Vlogs are supposed to be, more or less, stand alone.

According to whom? Why is it within your authority to say that vlogs can never be used to tell an ongoing story - especially when that's exactly what the Creators want to do here?

HyeMew wrote:

That is not to say you can't have a plot which runs through all of them, certainly, but at least some of them need some stand-alone-ability.

Again, according to whom?

HyeMew wrote:

Who is going to fondly reminice "oh yes, do you guys remember the time Jonas said he had a brodown with Daniel and that they were friends?"

Bad example, and you know it. There are plenty of events or lines from episodes post-"On The Run" that are well-loved and well-remembered. You only have to look through this thread or this one to see that. Or you could, you know, read the threads for each new video and see how people might comment on things that they absolutely adored.

HyeMew wrote:

What good is that to them? It's totally random, they'd learn nothing, and would probably have to do some major LGpedia to follow every twist and turn in the plot since Bree left home to actually understand.

That's different from tuning into any other ongoing series how? Hell, at least they have an online encyclopedia to turn to.

HyeMew wrote:

Meanwhile at the same time, if you got spartan about it I bet you could sum up the entire plot since Bree left home into about three sentences, as its literally just been: Run away here, watchers hang around, we run away, watchers hang around, we run away, we meet Jonas, daniel leaves, daniel returns, Bree meets her dad, her dad is killed, rinse lather repeat with the running away again, with a welcome Aunt Alex at the end.

Oh, and you could never do that with what came before. I mean, it's not like you could just add "Bree and Daniel hang around her room goofing off; Bree finds out Daniel likes her, and doesn't feel the same; Bree's supposed to be in some religious ceremony; Daniel's concerned and doesn't want her to do it, so she says she can't see him anymore; he starts spying on her during preparations; he convinces her not do it; her parents get kidnapped" and have it all. Of course, we'd have to go back to the part where you said "linse, rather, repeat," and, you know, actually summarize what happened there - which you seem to have left out.

VanillaFlava wrote:

How could this not have been an accident? There is no character development that reveals this 'true' side of Bree to us.

I don't think it was an accident because the things they had her do would never have been received positively by most people. I think that they wanted her to become dislikable like this for some reason. Even back in the motel vids - which started Bree's downward spiral - Daniel was shown as being frustrated with her because of her behavior.

It's been suggested before that maybe the Creators were still trying to play to the people who liked the cutesie stuff with those vids, but were that true, I don't imagine they would have shown Daniel becoming more and more annoyed with her - his annoyance seemingly mirroring that of many fans. I won't try taking a guess as to why they wanted her to become so hated, but I don't think they intend to leave her that way.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Yeah, apparently so. Simple enough failure in wording/understanding on both our parts, I guess.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Good for you. I do not want to belittle or spoil anyone's enjoyment of the current show. I just feel, it is nothing special at this point.

That's fair enough. Likewise, I don't find the early videos as engaging in terms of a storyline or fictional setting.

Which is not to say I didn't enjoy that phase of the series. I still love some of the early vids. They're just a different creature from what we have now, and I can't see the style of those early vids meeting the desires of the Creators.

Last edited by Lurker on Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:57 pm; edited 3 times in total

longlostposter
The Order of Denderah

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:46 am Post subject:

HyeMew wrote:

There you go. OK basically all that happened in those episodes was first Daniel hating Jonas, then Bree hating Jonas, and more or less now they're all cool again. The only real thing to happen was Jonas finding that document we haven't been able to read yet. I mean look at all that useless drama. It took WEEKS for that to unfold.

And you feel that weeks is too long? I don't think so. How long would it take for these kinds of things happen in RT?

I'm getting tired of the complaints. Really, if you don't like the series, then why hang around? If I don't like where I am or who I am with, I leave. Either that, or you could apply for a job as a writer. Laughing

EDIT: BTW, tying someone to a chair is not simply "hate". It's action-Jackson.

ROFL
_________________
You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker.

VanillaFlava
Casual Observer

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject:

longlostposter wrote:

I'm getting tired of the complaints. Really, if you don't like the series, then why hang around? If I don't like where I am or who I am with, I leave. Either that, or you could apply for a job as a writer. Laughing

I think we have quite an interesting discussion going on here. Asking somebody to leave simply because they don't share your views isn't very mature. Why don't you simply stop reading posts that so obviously annoy you? This forum has had a long and varied history, but I generally felt it never tried to exclude dissenting views, so let's not start making it personal please.

Lurker wrote:

Not seeing anything there that opens the door to a plethora of other characters, plot devices, and other world elements that would constitute a mythos. I see Bree talking about a medical condition she experienced as a baby, and "explaining" having brought it up in the vaguest way possible (some unidentified spat with her parents) - and then I see a small monkey puppet dancing.

Well, first of all to create a 'mythos' you neither need a plethora of things nor any other worldly events. The classical sense of the word refers to a collection of myths, which is not what we mean here, we talk about the more recent usage of creating a fictional universe, that might get explored from different angles but still can be recognised at taking part in the same fictional creation.

You ask Hyemew to be fair, and I agree, no need to get so emotional about this discussion, but then I would like to ask you to be fair as well. When you say that all you see is a girl talking about a medical condition, you are either blatantly missing what this episode is actually about, or you are just trying to have a quick jab back.

Now, as much as 'Poor Pluto' is not about planets 'Lazy Eye' is not about medical conditions. Why do we feel these episodes are more worthwhile than the later, and especially the current ones? They provide a cleverly written and nicely executed story. They show us Bree being unable to openly communicate her feelings, so she speaks in metaphors. You could only watch this one episode and would get a satisfying little story. It delivers.

If you watch any of the current episodes on their own, they are almost meaningless in and of themselves, and sometimes even pretty hollow for a whole stretch of episodes. It is clear the storytelling style has changed dramatically, and for some people, the overall quality of the episodes has declined to a degree of them easily being able to skip 5 episodes and not getting the feeling of having missed much of anything.

It's simple really. These early ones, were each all little storytelling nuggets that have great entertainment value of their own, told in a fresh and original format. Where now, well, you basically have a regular TV show, just cut up into little bits of little individual value. It's a pretty simple argument, and if you try to think about it objectively, I think it is hard to deny really.

Could the show have stayed like this forever? Nope. It did evolve quite nicely for a while, with the pre-ceremony episodes building up tension in a pretty neat way. But did the show necessarily have to mutate into this mega-conspiracy, by no means. I don't even think it was intentional. It probably happened through constraints of time on the writing. Do we have to excuse and accept this lesser quality writing? I don't think so, I see no reason why peope should not complain about the current state of the show.

The only thing we cannot, of course, do is make demands. Because for us, it's all free. But offering constructive criticism has always been an respected form of debate, that's the point really.

I am highly tempted to clean up this mess that got created over 'fanatasy' and 'epic' above. For the record, when I speak of epic, I mean the classical meaning of the word, Homer, writer of epics, as opposed to 'Dude, that was an epic portion of fries/movie/phorum post'.

Is Tolkien Fantasy? Well, he would have probably been very annoyed with that less than discerning classification. The man was a linguist and student of the great epics like Gilgamesh and the Kalevala. He wanted to create a modern day epic for the English, who kinda got their stories destroyed in the various invasions of their lands. So, it now should be pretty obvious when I say that 'Poor Pluto' is not about planets, LotR isn't about Elves, Dwarves or magic gizmos. Those are story devices to deliver a more subtle message.

THis is what I am talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry

LotR, Star Wars, etc. these are our modern day epics all cast from the mold of the earlier archetypes. LG15 seems to pick up some of these elements, but in a less than impressive cliché way, in my opinion. I think, them chosing to go down this path has degraded the quality of the show, which does not mean it cannot still appeal to alot of people. I am just saying it was several degrees better story-telling wise in its beginnings than in its current form.

It seems to me, Lurker really had a different understanding of the word, which probably led to the misunderstanding. But I get a bit annoyed when people use words carelessly, that actually have a meaning other than the most casual colloquial ones.
_________________

Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it.

longlostposter
The Order of Denderah

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject:

VanillaFlava wrote:

longlostposter wrote:

I believe you misunderstood. I didn't ask you to leave, I asked you why you don't leave. In essence, I was asking you to examine yourself, and your reasons for continuing to spend your valuable time posting in this thread.

EDIT: clarity
_________________
You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker.

VanillaFlava
Casual Observer

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject:

longlostposter wrote:

I didn't ask you to leave, I asked you why you don't leave. In essence, I was asking you to examine yourself, and your reasons for continuing to spend your valuable time posting in this thread.

Well, your original post was written as a suggestion, so it was easy to misinterpret.

Simple answer. I obviously like (or possible did like) LG15. I think there is some notable talent involved. I also am very interested in unusual story-telling, especially interactive formats. Also, I am involved professionally in Internet media, so it is of course interesting to see where all of this goes. Just came back from CeBit in Germany, lots of buzz about net video, net shows, mobile soaps, etc. etc.

Finally, I enjoy intelligent discussion and am eager to hear the opinions of others on the topics brought forward. I think some people should be less defensive about the show and just engage in the issues. It cannot hurt, and possibly make it better.

In short, why shouldn't I be here?
_________________

Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it.

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject:

VanillaFlava wrote:

Lurker wrote:

That's exactly what I'm talking about - an elaborated fictional world, consisting of related characters, plot devices or settings. There was nothing about the lazy eye video that would lend itself to crafting such a mythos as far as I understand it.

VanillaFlava wrote:

You ask Hyemew to be fair, and I agree, no need to get so emotional about this discussion, but then I would like to ask you to be fair as well. When you say that all you see is a girl talking about a medical condition, you are either blatantly missing what this episode is actually about, or you are just trying to have a quick jab back.

I was annoyed at the time I was typing that, sure, but I still conveyed what I witnessed in that video with complete honesty: I saw a girl talking about a medical condition she experienced as a child, then explaining why she brought it up in the vaguest possible way (a spat with her parents in which she said they wouldn't see things from her point of view), and then I saw her making a puppet dance.

If there is anything more to it than that, I concede that it went completely over my head and I would very much appreciate it if you would point it out to me.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Now, as much as 'Poor Pluto' is not about planets 'Lazy Eye' is not about medical conditions. Why do we feel these episodes are more worthwhile than the later, and especially the current ones? They provide a cleverly written and nicely executed story. They show us Bree being unable to openly communicate her feelings, so she speaks in metaphors. You could only watch this one episode and would get a satisfying little story. It delivers.

I don't understand what you and Hye feel that it delivers. Is it just the metahpor aspect? I'm not trying to belittle your appreciation of those vids, but I honestly don't see what you see. I feel like anyone could speak in metahpors like that, and I don't think Bree really had any trouble being straightforward about those other subjects in the first place (such that she would need to use metaphors).

She herself explained why she was using the metaphor in the lazy eye vid (but not the incident that brought on her mood in the first place - so I didn't feel like it offered anything particularly insightful; she was just saying she had a spat with her parents and they weren't willing to look at things from her point of view), and in "Poor Pluto" there was hardly any similarity between the metahpor and her high school story. She didn't even say anything about having to adjust to new friends - and the point couldn't have been that she was talking about being alienated (Pluto wasn't alienated; she even said it now had a new group of friends; if anything, she was the one doing the alienating by saying Pluto's new friends weren't who she'd want to hang out with). The Pluto thing would be a bad metaphor to begin with.

VanillaFlava wrote:

If you watch any of the current episodes on their own, they are almost meaningless in and of themselves, and sometimes even pretty hollow for a whole stretch of episodes.

...

It's simple really. These early ones, were each all little storytelling nuggets that have great entertainment value of their own, told in a fresh and original format. Where now, well, you basically have a regular TV show, just cut up into little bits of little individual value. It's a pretty simple argument, and if you try to think about it objectively, I think it is hard to deny really.

I haven't denied it. I'm just not seeing what's wrong with it. I don't understand why the videos are being judged on an individual basis in the first place when they're not meant to be taken that way - something like that can't be separated from its context and critiqued on its own. Each video is part of something larger, not an autonomous entity.

I also don't see what storytelling was going on in those early videos like the lazy eye video or "Poor Pluto." The first one was just Bree saying she'd been in a spat with her parents and they wouldn't see things from her perspective - and she spent a while getting to that point (which she never elaborated on anyway). With the second one, it seemed like she was talking about two almost completely unrelated things - the video actually seems random and disjointed, like it could have been two different videos (especially since the Pluto thing couldn't serve as a metaphor for what Bree experienced at school).

VanillaFlava wrote:

Could the show have stayed like this forever? Nope. It did evolve quite nicely for a while, with the pre-ceremony episodes building up tension in a pretty neat way. But did the show necessarily have to mutate into this mega-conspiracy, by no means.

There's something we can see eye to eye on. Like you, I also don't think the series would have lasted forever (or even up to now) like it was (some of the early videos were very entertaining to me, though, and I still watch them; others I couldn't care less about seeing again), nor do I think it necessarily had to evolve the way it did. I would have personally preferred an organization that didn't have so much power - or at least one that didn't have so much power in so many places.

It could have been like the Pride in "Runaways." They controlled LA, but their power outside LA was pretty much non-existent. Other criminals just knew better than to try staking out some ground on the Pride's turf.

VanillaFlava wrote:

I don't even think it was intentional. It probably happened through constraints of time on the writing. Do we have to excuse and accept this lesser quality writing? I don't think so, I see no reason why peope should not complain about the current state of the show.

I don't see why you should have to either. If you've seen many of my posts, you know I've always offered criticism when I felt things were going badly, and I commend you for doing it. We're just disagreeing on whether there's something wrong (and I'm not saying it's perfect; I just don't think it's become a disaster; I really think the writing right now is at its best).

I don't think that time or production constraints is what went wrong with the Order, though - I think it was just a mistake they made while writing before they realized what kind of limitations it was going to place on them at times. The Order ended up becoming something like - it may even be - the Illuminati instead of something like the Pride.

VanillaFlava wrote:

The only thing we cannot, of course, do is make demands. Because for us, it's all free. But offering constructive criticism has always been an respected form of debate, that's the point really.

Certainly. As is polite debate (insulting debate can be respected too, but only when called for), and I thank you for having been polite.

VanillaFlava wrote:

I am highly tempted to clean up this mess that got created over 'fanatasy' and 'epic' above. For the record, when I speak of epic, I mean the classical meaning of the word, Homer, writer of epics, as opposed to 'Dude, that was an epic portion of fries/movie/phorum post'.

Well, epics need not be something like "The Illiad," nor does a story involving a significant conflict necessarily have to be an epic. I don't think HyeMew understood the distinction, and that may be why he kept putting words into my mouth (which obviously made me mad).

"Runaways" was about lots of conflict and fighting the Pride, but I wouldn't call it an epic. The same is true of something like Jet Li's film "Hero" or "The Bourne Identity." I wouldn't even call "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" an epic. It had an epic moment or two (well, really only one), but it's not an epic.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Is Tolkien Fantasy? Well, he would have probably been very annoyed with that less than discerning classification. The man was a linguist and student of the great epics like Gilgamesh and the Kalevala. He wanted to create a modern day epic for the English, who kinda got their stories destroyed in the various invasions of their lands.

Well you can have an epic in any kind of genre (so long as conflict is involved). LoTR is definitely an epic, but it's also definitely one in the fantasy genre.

VanillaFlava wrote:

So, it now should be pretty obvious when I say that 'Poor Pluto' is not about planets, LotR isn't about Elves, Dwarves or magic gizmos. Those are story devices to deliver a more subtle message.

Actually, I think Tolkien maintained that he wasn't ever trying to use LoTR's plot for allegory (it was definitely in there, but I think it was just a result of all his scholarly and spiritual influences). I still don't see what messages were being conveyed by "Poor Pluto" or the lazy eye vid, though. When I said earlier in the post that I'd appreciate you explaining all that, I meant it. Tell me what you see. I'm willing to consider that I just don't get it.

VanillaFlava wrote:

It seems to me, Lurker really had a different understanding of the word, which probably led to the misunderstanding. But I get a bit annoyed when people use words carelessly, that actually have a meaning other than the most casual colloquial ones.

I used "mythos"/"mythology" in the same sense that the Creators did. HyeMew was the one to associate what I was saying with epics. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has a rather extensive mythos, but it's not what I'd call an epic.

Last edited by Lurker on Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

longlostposter
The Order of Denderah

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject:

OK, I wanted to play buttinsky, but now I'll bow out. Please continue, gentlemen, with your conversation. _________________ You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy. I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me. Proud member of the DB Fan Club. Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker.

longlostposter
The Order of Denderah

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject:

OK, I've changed my mind, and I'm going to join this discussion if it is alright with you gentlemen. If not, please let me know after this post.

HyeMew wrote:

Wow. You really simplified and downplayed what happened in these videos, didn't you? There was so much more to them then what you have stated here. The ongoing intrigue about Jonas really is a highpoint that you've managed to completely ignore, as well as numerous other things.

Hyemew wrote:

What is the value of continuous P. Monkey videos? You might as well turn on Captain Kangaroo and boogie with Mr. Greenjeans. Honestly, I don't understand how a 16 year-old acting like a 12 year-old is more valuable than "drama" (your own description).

BTW, when did drama become a bad thing?

hyemew wrote:

There really is no characterization, it's just drama. During that time, all of the characters had insane emotional swings all over the place, and that was just during one concentrated time. The people at Anchor Cove have documented at least 5-10 different Brees that have shown themselves since she left her room, each of them vastly different. And what good was all that mood swinging, if in the end they ALWAYS end up as bros again?

First of all, how could you know they will ALWAYS end up bros? Do you have a crystal ball? The statement is ludicrous.

Secondly, Daniel's character has emerged much more than it could have under the old format. In the earlier videos, he was almost non-existant, Bree's little do-boy. His character has much more depth now.

As for Bree's character...well, what can you say? Bree has no real character, and never has from the get-go. Jonas is ambiguous right now, because he is meant to be ambiguous.

As for Bree's mood swings, I remember what it was like to be a teenage girl. Even without the things that Bree has endured, I was moody as hell. Hormones raging, daddy murdered, an unknown sinister cult after her for God knows what, homeless, need I go on with the reasons Bree should be moody?

Hyemew wrote:

These episodes are just one thing after another, with little to no external value. They can't stand alone and I have no desire to watch them again once I know what happened. This stands in stark contrast to the early ones in which I not only remember just about all of them distinctively, but I love to go back to watch and enjoy. This "epic" that you seem to want, Lurker, does not work in vlog format, as it ends up as the-same-old-shit one-after-another.

Really? If you want to watch Bree squash waterbugs forever and play with stuffed puppets at the age of 16, will she ever be allowed to grow up? How you can claim these videos are same-old-shit-after-the-other, when all we had was Bree's bedroom before, is beyond me. Sorry, but I see no value in watching a teenager acting like a prepubescent child. Perhaps Sherry and Lambchop would cater more to your tastes.

I also see no necessity in them standing alone. Personally, I'd rather rewatch "Human Ransom" or "Miss Me" than watch P. Monkey boogie yet another time.

hyemew wrote:

Early LG worked so well because it was perfectly tailored to vlogging. The epic format however just leaves us with what is one movie cut up into a million different pieces, episodes with abolsutely no inherent value.

Why must they have inherent value? This is an ongoing drama, and I see no explanation here as to why you think it isn't tailored to vlogging. No offense, but your posts seem to be nothing but your opinion about what you like. Some people prefer more adult entertainment; the vast majority in this case, it seems. How many "Swimming" or "My dad won't like me go hiking" vids do you want? Don't you think they would grow tiresome?

Oh, and thanks in advance for allowing me to join this conversation.
_________________
You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker.

longlostposter
The Order of Denderah

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

I can see I'll be up all night catching up on this thread. Lurker, come and get me when you are doing this kind of thing again, OK? _________________ You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy. I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me. Proud member of the DB Fan Club. Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker.

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject:

longlostposter wrote:

I can see I'll be up all night catching up on this thread.

Lurker, come and get me when you are doing this kind of thing again, OK?

Sure thing. Sorry you've got to read back over all our long-winded arguments now.

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