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Lonelygirl15
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VanillaFlava
Casual Observer
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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We have had some interesting discussions in the last days in several threads here, especially in 'Ways to Come Out of this Better than Before' http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7410
While I believe, we were quite good at reconciling the view points of the heavily-immersed and the more casual viewers, we failed utterly in living up to the thread title's promise. We really didn't say how to come out better than before.
I'd like to change this. Also, not to just critisise and dissect constantly, I thought we should put a more positive spin on the discussions with this thread. Simply put, I would just like to stir up some opinions on the show's direction, content and presentation. Anything goes, just suggest what you feel would be best (just stick to the simple rules below).
Rules for Playing
To make this more efficient and decipherable, I would like you to stick to some simple presentation rules for your entries. You can see them in my example entry which I will use to kick this off. Please fill out any heading in bold below with your answer. Of course, you can just comment on things as well, just try to keep it well-mannered.
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Community / ARG Involvement
I'm a long-time viewer of LG15, since the earliest episodes. I have been heavily involved in the sleuthing and discussions on the boards. I have not been really involved in the ARG aspects since the Big Cassie Fallout of Sep 06. I am an interested onlooker, you could say.
Future Direction
The idea for this poll came up, because of the announcement that the ARG will be central to the show's future. While I can see how this change is possibly motivated, I would not be a big fan of that new direction. I think, that the majority of the audience does not even know the ARG exists, and the storytelling style, a heavily integrated ARG would create on the show's ongoing narrative, would seriously alienate the casual viewer in my opinion. I also do not believe that people on these boards are the voice of the audience, we are just a vocal, hardcore minority.
I think the show should take on a hybrid format in the future. With that I mean, that there should be a clear and linear storytelling format run as the backbone of the narrative. The episodes should be self-contained, and not require any outside viewing of any material to make sense or be enjoyable. However, I also think that in parallel, several other stories could play out, which sometime could intersect the main storyline. Here is also where I would see the ARG. It should be fully optional, and run alongside of the main LG15 plot and storyline. They could, of course, interesect, but if I chose not to read a single ARG forum post, it all should still make sense to me.
Future Content
I think the current plot lines of LG15 have blown up too much. From what started as a personal vlog of an isolated teenager's issues with authority, religion, and life in general, we are now steering toward an epic struggle of an almost omnipotent Order versus a small group of people. I think the suspension of disbelief required to swallow such a plot is a bit too much, and it also puts several contraints on what can be done with the story. I think it would be great if things could be toned down a little again. The Order would be much more interesting if they remained a little less omnipotent and ever present. Above all things they should be mysterious in their actions and motivations. Right now, they seem a little cliché to me. Other than that, I like the current characters, it would be great however, if their individual conflicts were given a little more room to breathe. The whole Bree ties up Jonas, to everybody being all buddies again was much too short and emotionless, except for some notable exceptions.
Summary: I would wish for less epic clash, more personal conflict.
Future Presentation
I think the current presentation of the material, i.e. one constant stream of videos, is probably not very well suited for a multi-layered and parallel approach to storytelling. I also think we have an important issue in this thread:
Who Sees What?
http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6843
In short, the question is whether all characters see everything that everybody puts on the web. The viewer should be omniscient, but not the characters! Otherwise, the limitation on the story development are much to severe.
I would wish for a new form of presentation. This could be done with a little bit of HTML-coding, or maybe Flash or your technology of choice. I am thinking of some form of hypertext. This would mean that I could follow the story and when I come to branches, I could follow different paths, or watch different segments.
So, we would have the main LG15 videos, and I could linearly watch them one after the other. I would also be shown that there are other stories running in parallel, like the ARG ones, for example. I could switch to that stream and then follow them, if I would like to. Replies to individual pieces would also be clearly marked, but shown smaller, so I can easily distinguish them. Actually, this is hard to explain in words, but pretty easy to draw on a piece of paper.
I also think there should be more personal diary format videos, that are assumed to be private and only known to the character, even though they may be posted openly in any stream. Finally, the characters should not be aware of what is going on in a different stream, unless for those moments when they do intersect.
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Ok, I hope I have given a good example of an entry. It will be very interesting to see what kind of things other people would like to see, so I hope you will have fun with this!
_________________
 Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think, that the majority of the audience does not even know the ARG exists, and the storytelling style, a heavily integrated ARG would create on the show's ongoing narrative, would seriously alienate the casual viewer in my opinion. I also do not believe that people on these boards are the voice of the audience, we are just a vocal, hardcore minority. |
I think all this is probably true.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think the show should take on a hybrid format in the future. With that I mean, that there should be a clear and linear storytelling format run as the backbone of the narrative. The episodes should be self-contained, and not require any outside viewing of any material to make sense or be enjoyable. |
How would that work, though? You couldn't have an ongoing storyline if every installment was self-contained.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think the current plot lines of LG15 have blown up too much. From what started as a personal vlog of an isolated teenager's issues with authority, religion, and life in general, we are now steering toward an epic struggle of an almost omnipotent Order versus a small group of people. I think the suspension of disbelief required to swallow such a plot is a bit too much, and it also puts several contraints on what can be done with the story. I think it would be great if things could be toned down a little again. The Order would be much more interesting if they remained a little less omnipotent and ever present. |
I agree about the Order being more interesting when they weren't known to be quite so powerful, and also agree that their inferred influence makes suspension of disbelief difficult at times - as well as that it puts a lot of constraints on things - but I don't see how they could be scaled back at this point, do you? Their ability has already been established in the story and it can't be taken back now.
In previous discussion you suggested taking them beyond the reach of the Order for a while - but that would delay the main narrative's advancement and resolution (which could only hurt the story and fan interest in it). It would also place another bit of pressure on the suspension of disbelief, as we've been led to believe so far that there shouldn't be anywhere they can't reach.
One thing they might consider doing, though, is putting a more personal face on the Order. There's been a few individuals presented that belonged to the Order, but it continues to seem like it's this group of people (Bree, Jonas, Daniel, Tachyon, Brother, and whoever Tach and Brother associate with) versus this soulless organization (that just happens to include human members).
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Above all things they should be mysterious in their actions and motivations. |
Well, this they still are. We really don't know what they want at all, and most of their actions can only be guessed.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | In short, the question is whether all characters see everything that everybody puts on the web. The viewer should be omniscient, but not the characters! Otherwise, the limitation on the story development are much to severe. |
The pretense of the whole thing, though, is that it's a vlog. In order to maintain that, there really is no breaking from the current system.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I would wish for a new form of presentation. This could be done with a little bit of HTML-coding, or maybe Flash or your technology of choice. I am thinking of some form of hypertext. This would mean that I could follow the story and when I come to branches, I could follow different paths, or watch different segments. |
That wouldn't really be suited to a vlog, though.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I also think there should be more personal diary format videos, that are assumed to be private and only known to the character, even though they may be posted openly in any stream. |
This would really hurt the believability of it being a vlog, though - if they didn't want anyone to see it, they shouldn't have uploaded it to begin with, and if we are able to see it, then that means anyone can see it.
Anyway, the only suggestions I really have are making the Order seem a little more personal. It's too late to make it appear less-than-nigh-omniscient or less-than-nigh-omnipotent, but I don't think that necessarily means interesting things can't still be done with the people who are involved in it.
And again, while there's some human faces in the Order, we don't know that they're necessarily representative of it. There's not really a personification of the Order at this point, or an idea of who or what its head and other appendages are.
I realize mystery couldn't be maintained if all that was known, but it's obviously something that will need to be revealed at some point. If the idea was to not to do it for a while, then I'd say Alex, OpAphid or even Bree's mom should become a more active voice for the organization for a while. |
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VanillaFlava
Casual Observer
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: Re: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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EDIT: I realise that maybe this thread shouldn't be in Concerns and Complaints, because it is neither. Suggestions seem to be only for forum stuff, so I didn't know where to put it. If a moderator feels like moving it somewhere more appropriate please go ahead.
| Lurker wrote: |
How would that work, though? You couldn't have an ongoing storyline if every installment was self-contained.
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Hmm, I probably didn't write that clearly enough. While I enjoy self-contained episodes with their own little 2 minute story, I agree this couldn't be pulled off all the time. Here, I meant ... the episodes [of the main storyline] should be self-contained. If I didn't want to watch the other alternative/parallel stories, if should't be forced to.
| Lurker wrote: |
I agree about the Order being more interesting when they weren't known to be quite so powerful, and also agree that their inferred influence makes suspension of disbelief difficult at times - as well as that it puts a lot of constraints on things - but I don't see how they could be scaled back at this point, do you? Their ability has already been established in the story and it can't be taken back now.
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Yes, this would definately be tricky. Then again, we do see most of the story from the characters' point of view and not really from an omniscient narrator. So, it could be explained that a lot of what they are seeing and conjecturing about the Order is their own hysteria and paranoia. Like the helicopter in the last video. There are plenty of helicopters flying around everywhere. The Order probably does not have an agent in each one of them. So, we could for example see a character trying to talk some sense into them.
For this purpose, I think Aunt Alex would be great. Right now, I think she is kinda an in-between character. We are not which side she is really on. She could be ambiguous, but still help the trio out and maybe calm them down a little. Aunt Alex, for the brief time she appears, is really a cool character, that could be used for some interesting twists.
| Lurker wrote: |
In previous discussion you suggested taking them beyond the reach of the Order for a while - but that would delay the main narrative's advancement and resolution (which could only hurt the story and fan interest in it). It would also place another bit of pressure on the suspension of disbelief, as we've been led to believe so far that there shouldn't be anywhere they can't reach.
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I think you right, but I really see that as a problem. In the end then, you are saying if the C's don't focus on the Order constantly and keep up this pace also wuth decent payoffs, the show would become boring. I really think they painted themselves into a corner then. You cannot have constant tension in the story, there needs to be some relief sometimes.
| Lurker wrote: |
One thing they might consider doing, though, is putting a more personal face on the Order. There's been a few individuals presented that belonged to the Order, but it continues to seem like it's this group of people (Bree, Jonas, Daniel, Tachyon, Brother, and whoever Tach and Brother associate with) versus this soulless organization (that just happens to include human members).
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I think this is an excellent suggestion. It would go down much better if the Order got more of a human face. Some main villains, if you'd like. I guess there's Lucy, but she's also not really explored that much. For showing the inside workings of the Order, I think the ARG would be excellent. It could be about uncovering their secrets or following one of them, or even be from an insider's point of view. I guess this could take the form like the two Cassie videos did. The ARG returns to places first seen in the main story, and shows or is about what the Order did there. Just one suggestion to make this work.
| Lurker wrote: |
The pretense of the whole thing, though, is that it's a vlog. In order to maintain that, there really is no breaking from the current system.
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True. But you know, it's really just a pretense at this moment anyway. I mean, we constantly suspend our disbelief when the characters are afraid to use mobile phones, but not concerned at all about uploading detailed videos of their whereabouts and plans on the web.
I don't really think anymore that it is such a good idea to show the kind of the story they seem to want to tell in straight vlog format. That is why I suggest personal diaries. We could still get all the action and plot advancement and also hold on to some form of vlog.
| Lurker wrote: |
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I would wish for a new form of presentation. ... I am thinking of some form of hypertext. |
That wouldn't really be suited to a vlog, though.
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Why not? What I am suggesting is just a different way or organising and presenting the different episodes. I really think we have moved beyond straight-up vlogging anyway. But the current mix and match of ARG and story videos all in on linear stream is probably confusing to casual viewers. The web is ideally suited for presenting hypertext, and as far as I know, it's never been tried with a video series as ambitous as LG15.
I really like the two party videos for example. If they are presented one after the other, they need to contain many new elements or people would probably think its a double-post. If you presented them alongside each other, and even do this more frequently, you really would get a cool effect, of individual, differing views of a given situation. I think this would be very cool to see in a series, and is almost never done in normal TV formats. Its a bit of gimick when it's done, but if this became a regular feature of LG15, I think this would really add a huge uniqueness factor to the show. Again, I think the ARG would be suited for this immensely. YOu would see a situation in the main stream, and then you would see it again, maybe trough the Order's eyes with a totally different take on it. If this could be pulled off right, I think people would go nuts over it!
| Lurker wrote: |
This would really hurt the believability of it being a vlog, though - if they didn't want anyone to see it, they shouldn't have uploaded it to begin with, and if we are able to see it, then that means anyone can see it.
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Again, I really think LG15 has stretched and burst the bubble of being a believable vlog anyway. The charactes should know the Order watches YouTube as well, so why are they still uploading. It makes no sense really. So, let's not keep up the pretense. I think the ambitions the C's have for LG15 cannot be met by a straight vlog format. It is too constraining, and they have broken the rules the setup for the early episodes too many times already. I'd say, let's move beyond.
| Lurker wrote: |
I realize mystery couldn't be maintained if all that was known, but it's obviously something that will need to be revealed at some point. If the idea was to not to do it for a while, then I'd say Alex, OpAphid or even Bree's mom should become a more active voice for the organization for a while. |
I think so as well! Let's get us a real, preferably not black and white villain. Like I said, this character could also be the focus of the ARG, and sometimes interject with the main story.
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Well now, I'm not gonna talk about Judy. In fact, we're not gonna talk about Judy at all, we're gonna keep her out of it. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: Re: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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| VanillaFlava wrote: | | EDIT: I realise that maybe this thread shouldn't be in Concerns and Complaints, because it is neither. Suggestions seem to be only for forum stuff, so I didn't know where to put it. |
The "Questions and Comments About LG15" section actually seems like the most appropriate place to me since that relates to the series itself.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Hmm, I probably didn't write that clearly enough. While I enjoy self-contained episodes with their own little 2 minute story, I agree this couldn't be pulled off all the time. Here, I meant ... the episodes [of the main storyline] should be self-contained. If I didn't want to watch the other alternative/parallel stories, if should't be forced to. |
Okay, so you're saying the episodes of the main storyline as a whole should be self-contained (perhaps "self-sustained" would be a better way of phrasing it?), not that each individual episode should be?
If that's the case, I have to agree. The main series should be able to stand on its own largely, and I believe it could be, even while a sidestory enhanced it in some respects.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Yes, this would definately be tricky. Then again, we do see most of the story from the characters' point of view and not really from an omniscient narrator. So, it could be explained that a lot of what they are seeing and conjecturing about the Order is their own hysteria and paranoia. Like the helicopter in the last video. There are plenty of helicopters flying around everywhere. The Order probably does not have an agent in each one of them. So, we could for example see a character trying to talk some sense into them. |
There are plenty of things that go beyond paranoia, though. I'm not even really talking about the helicopters.
For instance, the Order definitely has: The power and resources to take thousands of baby girls and place them in controlled homes (which one must assume are payed for by the Order), then raise them to adulthood; communes scattered across the globe, which they presumably also maintain; the means to easily go blow up places in assassination attempts; politicians and the heads of corporations; and connections with law enforcement in - at the very least - Los Angeles (but - and, I admit, this is speculation - I would assume they have such connections in other places too, considering how widespread they seem to be).
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think you right, but I really see that as a problem. In the end then, you are saying if the C's don't focus on the Order constantly and keep up this pace also wuth decent payoffs, the show would become boring. I really think they painted themselves into a corner then. You cannot have constant tension in the story, there needs to be some relief sometimes. |
I do think they have times of relief, to be honest (there was more than there should have been January, then there were some lighter moments at the cabin, then there was the party Alex took B&J too, and then there was reunion vid with BD&J at the truckstop). I see what you're saying, but I really think they already address the need for relief. I don't feel like there's constant tension at work.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think this is an excellent suggestion. It would go down much better if the Order got more of a human face. Some main villains, if you'd like. I guess there's Lucy, but she's also not really explored that much. For showing the inside workings of the Order, I think the ARG would be excellent. It could be about uncovering their secrets or following one of them, or even be from an insider's point of view. I guess this could take the form like the two Cassie videos did. The ARG returns to places first seen in the main story, and shows or is about what the Order did there. Just one suggestion to make this work. |
That's kind of what seemed to be happening with the ARG previously, but I don't think it was explored as it could - or should - have been. That would have been a great opportunity to give more of an inside look at the Order had it been taken further. Op even started to feel like a human face to the whole thing, but the attention being given to the ARG waned and she soon became distant and spoke with all the clarity of a mud puddle.
If that were revisited with more focus and consistency, I think it would work well, and that would address what we've talked about with the main storyline standing on its own even while the sidestory enhanced it. Obviously they'd need to crossover at times - and would especially have to before there could be an ending to this plot with Bree - but that would certainly be a way of going about this.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | True. But you know, it's really just a pretense at this moment anyway. I mean, we constantly suspend our disbelief when the characters are afraid to use mobile phones, but not concerned at all about uploading detailed videos of their whereabouts and plans on the web. |
I know, but since this thing started as a blog with the idea being to explore the potential for entertainment using the vlog format, and since they've carried it this far (nearly a year) on that pretense, I think it would be a shame for them to not continue doing so now.
Also, it would kind of hurt the suspension thing in a different way. So far we've watched every video with the understanding that it was a vlog. If it suddenly changed yet we were still looking into their world as through a magical window, it would just be different. They could just go to tv at that point if they wanted to, and I thought the idea was that this is supposed to be web-based and supposed to employ the resources of the web in telling the story.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I don't really think anymore that it is such a good idea to show the kind of the story they seem to want to tell in straight vlog format. That is why I suggest personal diaries. We could still get all the action and plot advancement and also hold on to some form of vlog. |
I can see what you're saying here, and, sure, you can have vlogs that only your friends can see, but then are Jonas, Bree and Daniel not going to list each other as friends and each of them be completely cool with that? And how would they know who they could and couldn't trust to list as friends anyway? Even if they weren't adding Order members onto the list, they could be adding someone who would be looking to PM Bree or Jonas with the details of Daniel's latest diary entry.
Also, could Tachyon, Brother, or OpAphid not just bypass whatever electronic obstacle is supposed to be preventing them from getting into their private videos (we already know Brother can do this; he hacked into Gemma's YT account and took it over)? As with the color-coded, private video kind of thing the Creators were thinking about a while ago, if it's all for the purpose of maintaining the pretense that this is still a vlog, I have to say that it's infinitely more simple to just keep it like it is now when all these extra measures seem unnecessary and doomed to be ineffective in the story to begin with.
Of course, if they just dropped the pretense that it's a vlog, all the magic windows would work - but, then, as I said before, I think there's good reasons for not changing with format there.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I really like the two party videos for example. If they are presented one after the other, they need to contain many new elements or people would probably think its a double-post. If you presented them alongside each other, and even do this more frequently, you really would get a cool effect, of individual, differing views of a given situation. I think this would be very cool to see in a series, and is almost never done in normal TV formats. Its a bit of gimick when it's done, but if this became a regular feature of LG15, I think this would really add a huge uniqueness factor to the show. |
I do have to agree that the sort of "remix" thing they did with the party videos was awesome, and could easily be done with the vlog format (and they've already done it once now, and did it well, so there's certainly precedent for doing it again).
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Again, I think the ARG would be suited for this immensely. YOu would see a situation in the main stream, and then you would see it again, maybe trough the Order's eyes with a totally different take on it. If this could be pulled off right, I think people would go nuts over it! |
I agree. It's just a question of how could it be pulled off right. Maybe surveillance cameras that Tachyon would tap into. If this were in London it would seem a lot easier to pull that kind of thing off (from what I understand, they have tons of public surveillance and continue adding more, such that lots of people say they're on the road to becoming an Orwellian city).
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Again, I really think LG15 has stretched and burst the bubble of being a believable vlog anyway. The charactes should know the Order watches YouTube as well, so why are they still uploading. |
Here they have made an in-story shot at explaining it. In "Sorry Jonas," Bree said "There's really not much that we can do but keep filming everything that happens to us because, at least, if we do get caught, there will be some kind of record of it."
They don't need to be making so much of the scenery obvious when they upload, but given this explanation, I can find them continuing to upload stuff more believable.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I think the ambitions the C's have for LG15 cannot be met by a straight vlog format. It is too constraining, and they have broken the rules the setup for the early episodes too many times already. I'd say, let's move beyond. |
I think their ambitions can still be met. It will just require some creativity, which I think they'll pull off. Also, to be fair, elements of the plot itself (with the Order being so powerful) are infinitely more constraining than the medium in which the story's being presented.
What rules, by the way? |
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Kasdeja
Hymn of One
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 7754
Location: Back...and to the left.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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All these well thought out long posts...and all I can come up with is..."forward"... 
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HyeMew
Moderator
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 797
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: Re: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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| Lurker wrote: | | For instance, the Order definitely has: The power and resources to take thousands of baby girls and place them in controlled homes (which one must assume are payed for by the Order), then raise them to adulthood; communes scattered across the globe, which they presumably also maintain; the means to easily go blow up places in assassination attempts; politicians and the heads of corporations; and connections with law enforcement in - at the very least - Los Angeles (but - and, I admit, this is speculation - I would assume they have such connections in other places too, considering how widespread they seem to be). |
This is one of my biggest problems with the show. The Order is literally so all-consuming they basically run the world. I think there are fewer people NOT in the Order than is. It makes you question how a trio of kids without even a place to live could possibly ever single-handedly dismantle this organization. I mean think about it, they are literally ALL over the world, with people in every organization and office. Even if Bree somehow destroyed all of the top Deacons who run the Order, the number of members in very powerful position who could just take their place is mind-boggling.
Basically what the Creators have done is set up a realistically undefeatable force. At least in Lord of the Rings there was an easy explanation, even when the dark forces were looking overwhelming and were basically unstoppable, their power was directly connected to the ring. With it's destruction they were all automatically destroyed. With the Order though, they are so powerful and so controllig of every aspect of the world on an international level (with likely millions of dedicated followers willing to do anything up to and including hanging outside of motel rooms doing nothing for weeks who would could keep replenishing the ranks of the leadership if the top figures were ever taken down), the thought of an army having the forces to take them down is absurd let alone three kids.
And even if Bree somehow does escape their clutches and ceases to be the object of their desire, what hope is there for a couple of kids in a world irrevokably run by the Order?
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immortal1
Enthusiastic Fan
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: Re: The Direction of the Show - Your Opinions |
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| HyeMew wrote: | | Lurker wrote: | | For instance, the Order definitely has: The power and resources to take thousands of baby girls and place them in controlled homes (which one must assume are payed for by the Order), then raise them to adulthood; communes scattered across the globe, which they presumably also maintain; the means to easily go blow up places in assassination attempts; politicians and the heads of corporations; and connections with law enforcement in - at the very least - Los Angeles (but - and, I admit, this is speculation - I would assume they have such connections in other places too, considering how widespread they seem to be). |
This is one of my biggest problems with the show. The Order is literally so all-consuming they basically run the world. I think there are fewer people NOT in the Order than is. It makes you question how a trio of kids without even a place to live could possibly ever single-handedly dismantle this organization. I mean think about it, they are literally ALL over the world, with people in every organization and office. Even if Bree somehow destroyed all of the top Deacons who run the Order, the number of members in very powerful position who could just take their place is mind-boggling.
Basically what the Creators have done is set up a realistically undefeatable force. At least in Lord of the Rings there was an easy explanation, even when the dark forces were looking overwhelming and were basically unstoppable, their power was directly connected to the ring. With it's destruction they were all automatically destroyed. With the Order though, they are so powerful and so controllig of every aspect of the world on an international level (with likely millions of dedicated followers willing to do anything up to and including hanging outside of motel rooms doing nothing for weeks who would could keep replenishing the ranks of the leadership if the top figures were ever taken down), the thought of an army having the forces to take them down is absurd let alone three kids.
And even if Bree somehow does escape their clutches and ceases to be the object of their desire, what hope is there for a couple of kids in a world irrevokably run by the Order? |
I can think of ways. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's not that hard. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Kasdeja wrote: | | All these well thought out long posts...and all I can come up with is..."forward"... |
That is certainly a direction, though.
| HyeMew wrote: | | This is one of my ... irrevokably run by the Order? |
I agree with everything you just said there. Right now there really doesn't seem like a way for them to take the Order down - and even if they're left alone at some point, they'd have no choice but to leave the world in the Order's hands. Maybe there's some figurehead they have that we don't yet know about who could be killed and dismantle the whole system, but there's no apparent weakness right now.
As an organization, if the Order were to be compared to a living entity, it would be "X-Men"'s Wolverine: Durable enough on its own with an admantium-laced skeleton, but it's also got a healing factor (the "healing factor" of the Order, of course, being all the sheep they're raising to replace anyone who dies).
| immortal1 wrote: | | I can think of ways. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's not that hard. |
Could you elaborate on that, Dr. Immant? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'd say these guys seem to be already corrupted by their power, but I don't think they're in danger of crashing down because of it. If it led to ruthlessness, it might be what's allowed them to acquire all this power. |
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bethy
Devoted Fan
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 858
Location: Follow the yellow brick road...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | he Order is literally so all-consuming they basically run the world. |
The Illuminati is a good example.
Oh, man....some of you guys need to listen to George Noory and Art Bell. |
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horcruxes
Devoted Fan
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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i'm wayyyy to ADD to read those posts.
synopsis please?
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immortal1
Enthusiastic Fan
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | I can think of ways. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's not that hard. |
Could you elaborate on that, Dr. Immant? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'd say these guys seem to be already corrupted by their power, but I don't think they're in danger of crashing down because of it. If it led to ruthlessness, it might be what's allowed them to acquire all this power. |
When it comes to sharing power someone ultimately gets greedy and wants more for themselves. We certainly don't know all the players. Betrayal, coups, truces and unholy alliances hold it all together but also might provide an entry point. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
You know what always amazed me? How guys in the mafia could be engaged in theft, murder and adultery yet still go to church every Sunday. Even the most ruthless have lines they do not cross and sometimes those lines are not apparent to the rest of us.
This idea that free will seems to be regarded above all else seems to be one of those lines within the Order. Could there be similar lines? Do we really know the landscape as well as we think we do? Is this about defeating the Order or outsmarting them?
I would never presume to speak for Dr. Immant but if there were any chinks in the armor, he'd be in a position to know wouldn't he? (Or at least as many like to point out, as he sees it.) |
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VanillaFlava
Casual Observer
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: |
I know, but since this thing started as a blog with the idea being to explore the potential for entertainment using the vlog format, and since they've carried it this far (nearly a year) on that pretense, I think it would be a shame for them to not continue doing so now.
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Well, I hear what you are saying, but I think they really haven't been carrying through on this for a long time. All videos are posted on the same account now. I mean before, at least there were several accounts, several voices that could make the vlog pretense somewhat believable.
Sure, they soon realised that vids don't get the same kind of viewership this way, and it was all folded into just one account, where they basically distribute the story just like any other serial in a linear format, which just happens to be on the web.
I guess, the problem is that they really have been unsuccessful in converting their audience over to this site, where all kinds of things would be possible. The majority still seems to be stuck on YT.
| Lurker wrote: |
Also, it would kind of hurt the suspension thing in a different way. So far we've watched every video with the understanding that it was a vlog. If it suddenly changed yet we were still looking into their world as through a magical window, it would just be different. They could just go to tv at that point if they wanted to, and I thought the idea was that this is supposed to be web-based and supposed to employ the resources of the web in telling the story.
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I have to disgree. I stopped thinking about them as being vlogs really, as soon as they took on a more action-based format, i.e. as soon as they moved around a lot more and took on more of a regular show approach.
I think, changing the presentation would actually bring back a lot of this suspension of disbelief factor. I mean really, going to LG15.com and watching the vids on the front page is really the magical window you speak of.
I just gotten around to listening to Mixed Media (time zone wise I couldn't catch it when they aired). The c's make reference to some changes they want to do to the presentation of that video responses there, like allowing people to group them. I think that idea is great, and could also work for the more official material. Creating streams of stories that one could follow.
So, what I would envision is a main stream of the central story, which is all public and posted to YT. There would then be personal diary style vids, that say could be posted to something of a private section. I don't think it would hurt suspension of disbelief very much. Think of them as the LG15 equivalent of the Reality TV private sessions, for example in Big Brother. The characters mainly speak to themselves there, and it allows them to express thoughts and feelings they wouldn't to the other characters. It would definately add an angle of drama, we currently don't have.
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Lurker
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| VanillaFlava wrote: | | Well, I hear what you are saying, but I think they really haven't been carrying through on this for a long time. All videos are posted on the same account now. I mean before, at least there were several accounts, several voices that could make the vlog pretense somewhat believable. |
I don't see why it's not still believable. We already knew that Daniel had used Bree's account before - and now they all sign off on the video description to make known which of them uploaded it. Added to that the reason Bree posited for them continuing to film and upload at all ("There's really not much that we can do but keep filming everything that happens to us because, at least, if we do get caught, there will be some kind of record of it") and I think them all using one account now actually makes more sense than using several different ones would.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | I have to disgree. I stopped thinking about them as being vlogs really, as soon as they took on a more action-based format, i.e. as soon as they moved around a lot more and took on more of a regular show approach.
I think, changing the presentation would actually bring back a lot of this suspension of disbelief factor. I mean really, going to LG15.com and watching the vids on the front page is really the magical window you speak of. |
I don't see it as a magical window at all. LG15.com is supposed to a fansite in the fictional world. The videos themselves still completely presume that they're vlogs.
Anyway, I want to reiterate again that Greg, Mesh, and Miles wanted the series to employ web-based resources. That being the case, the series being presented as a vlog is like the foundation. Video responses are then built off that (as is the currently defunct ARG).
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | I just gotten around to listening to Mixed Media (time zone wise I couldn't catch it when they aired). The c's make reference to some changes they want to do to the presentation of that video responses there, like allowing people to group them. I think that idea is great, and could also work for the more official material. Creating streams of stories that one could follow. |
That seems like it would be a good idea. I imagine that trying to follow the fanfiction just by looking on the front page is a bit of a pain right now. Responders having their own dedicated feed that would display updates would be good.
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | So, what I would envision is a main stream of the central story, which is all public and posted to YT. |
YT or Revver?
| VanillaFlava wrote: | | There would then be personal diary style vids, that say could be posted to something of a private section. I don't think it would hurt suspension of disbelief very much. Think of them as the LG15 equivalent of the Reality TV private sessions, for example in Big Brother. The characters mainly speak to themselves there, and it allows them to express thoughts and feelings they wouldn't to the other characters. It would definately add an angle of drama, we currently don't have. |
It still wouldn't be consistent if the other characters couldn't see them, though. If we could see them anyone in that fictional world should be able to.
By the way, that would be an example of the kind of "magical window" I was talking about. |
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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OK, I've read this thread, and I'm going to add a few of my thoughts.
First of all, I think the vlog aspect can be maintained and still incorporated in a kind of third-party representation (Is this the magical window you are talking about, Lurker? Not really sure what you mean). Anyway, the third-party concept wouldn't be that hard to introduce. We've seen it in "The Human Ransom" with the surveillance cameras. While the Order positioning surveillance cameras in public places isn't really believable, and also has the added problem of making the Order seem even more omnipresent and omniscient (which we all agree is a problem); the way around that is to place the cameras indoors. Shoot, Bree has already said that the cameras were in their homes, in their cars, etc, and we have seen Daniel find a surveillance device in his room at his parent's house. This makes for a perfect set-up for third-person POV vids, that could actually be presented as vlogs posted by Oppy or Tachyon, or whomever. These could be made even more interesting by overlaid commentary by the poster.
As to immortal1's ideas about how the Order can be taken down; I agree. How many potential Tachyons are there within the Order? They could begin to destroy themselves from the inside very easily. This could be facilitated by infiltration, planting of false documents (Who wouldn't love to see Tachy break into Order headquarters and replace one of their important documents with a note saying, "The data you requested is no longer available", and then stealing the hard drives from their computers at that location. Of course, this has some inherent problems, but I don't think they are unworkable.
Anyone ever heard the phrase, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"? Or read the story of David and Goliath? The Order can be brought down with a carefully planned course of action and cunning. Simply recruiting more people into the resistance would have an effect. These people wouldn't have to appear on camera; thus not necessitating the need for numerous actors. They could simply be voices on the phone, or talked about in the third-person.
As a side note, I want to add here, that immortal1 usually posts his opinions only once or twice in these kinds of threads, and doesn't push the issue. As a result, his posts often get overshadowed by the posts of those who post more frequently. This is unfortunate, as what he puts forth is usually quite intelligent, and workable. His posts don't get the attention they deserve.
OK, now to my concerns about some of the suggestions that have been made by Lurker and VanillaFlava. Kudos to you guys for some wonderful ideas. However, if this Website becomes too difficult to navigate, first-time visitors will be put off, as well as those who aren't well acquainted with the storyline. IOW, it would be viewed as overwhelming by those who aren't particularly devoted (those that don't visit often or were first-time visitors) or those that are already intimidated by the Net, because of limited computer skills. In addition, if the storyline looks to complicated to follow (or even catch up on) the majority will just leave the site in frustration. I think one of the major obstacles that we are looking at here is the presentation of the material we are discussing, and the designing of the Website. These are going to be very tricky. On top of this, the ARG element has to be incorporated into this as well. I'm certainly glad it's not me designing the new Website. The Creators have a humongous undertaking in this alone.
As far as the storyline goes, any problems there can be overcome with some well thought out creativity. No way we are painted into a corner, or even close to it. Shoot, Oppy making one major mistake could bring the Order down. After all, she is the enforcement arm.
Lurker and Vanilla (or whomever else), feel free to comment on these observations.
EDIT: Clarity
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Lurker
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| longlostposter wrote: | | First of all, I think the vlog aspect can be maintained and still incorporated in a kind of third-party representation (Is this the magical window you are talking about, Lurker? Not really sure what you mean). |
Only if it's there without someone in the story setting it up. Like in "The Human Ransom," Tachyon had apparently set up cameras, so it wasn't quite a magical window.
| longlostposter wrote: | | We've seen it in "The Human Ransom" with the surveillance cameras. While the Order positioning surveillance cameras in public places isn't really believable, and also has the added problem of making the Order seem even more omnipresent and omniscient (which we all agree is a problem); the way around that is to place the cameras indoors. Shoot, Bree has already said that the cameras were in their homes, in their cars, etc, and we have seen Daniel find a surveillance device in his room at his parent's house. |
It might work as often as they'd need it to. I guess it depends on how often - and where - they need to be able to have that third-person perspective.
| longlostposter wrote: | | As to immortal1's ideas about how the Order can be taken down; I agree. How many potential Tachyons are there within the Order? They could begin to destroy themselves from the inside very easily. |
This is something I'd like for them to kind of address. immortal1 said "Do we really know the landscape as well as we think we do?" It would be nice to get a better idea of it.
I'd disagree with him that they seem to regard free will above all else (at least where anyone but their golden children are concerned), but there may well be something in their rules or structure that can be used to outsmart them.
| longlostposter wrote: | | As a side note, I want to add here, that immortal1 usually posts his opinions only once or twice in these kinds of threads, and doesn't push the issue. As a result, his posts often get overshadowed by the posts of those who post more frequently. This is unfortunate, as what he puts forth is usually quite intelligent, and workable. His posts don't get the attention they deserve. |
Yeah, he needs to post more.
| longlostposter wrote: | | However, if this Website becomes too difficult to navigate, first-time visitors will be put off, as well as those who aren't well acquainted with the storyline. IOW, it would be viewed as overwhelming by those who aren't particularly devoted (those that don't visit often or were first-time visitors) or those that are already intimidated by the Net, because of limited computer skills. In addition, if the storyline looks to complicated to follow (or even catch up on) the majority will just leave the site in frustration. I think one of the major obstacles that we are looking at here is the presentation of the material we are discussing, and the designing of the Website. |
That's one of the reasons I'm not too fond of this private transmissions stuff. I think the way it's done now is actually pretty darn good: One channel for the good guys, each of them signing off on it when they upload to identify themselves clearly.
Accessibility would also be a good reason to try grouping the fanfiction together into their own obvious feeds that would update on the front page. I don't know if that's possible, but if it can be done, it would be great.
| longlostposter wrote: | | As far as the storyline goes, any problems there can be overcome with some well thought out creativity. No way we are painted into a corner, or even close to it. Shoot, Oppy making one major mistake could bring the Order down. After all, she is the enforcement arm. |
What kind of mistake are you thinking? Right now the Order seems so widespread and so populous that seems like it'd be impossible to take them apart.
I think knowing more about their structure would help with this. Like if there's a central communication center (I doubt they'd have this, but I'm just throwing out a suggestion) that they couldn't do without. Getting rid of it might leave all of the communes such independent of one another - which would be an improvement. |
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