LGPedia - User contributions [en]

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-03-02T22:42:50Z

72.201.161.166: /* Starting Fresh, Perhaps */

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
*[[The 707 clique]]
*[[Aaronbeast]]
*[[Acrowleyorder]]
*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
*[[Breeiswaiting]]
*[[Brucker]]
*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
*[[Cassieiswatching]]
*[[Cassieresurrection]]
*[[Cassie UGC]]
**[[Cassieiswatching]]
**[[itscassie]]
**[[breeiswaiting]]
**[[cassieresurrection]]
**[[frankiswaking]]
**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
*[[Deemontreal]]
*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
*[[The Flock]]
*[[Fourthface]]
*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
*[[Immant]]
*[[Iris2009]]
*[[Itscassie]]
*[[Kelseygirl15]]
*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
*[[Lonelydude15]]
*[[lonelygirl362436]]
*[[LonelyJew15]]
*[[LonesomeOctober]]
*[[LordGreystoke422]]
*[[Maccaboy17]]
*[[Maddison Atkins]]
*[[Marbella]]
*[[MessyNessy89]]
*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
*[[MsBlackBetty]]
*[[N3ural N3t]]
*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
*[[OpAphid]]
*[[OpScorn]]
*[[Paulmark18]]
*[[ProjectStatic]]
*[[Redearth88]]
*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
*[[StormFaction]]
*[[Scdgoofy]]
*[[TWJaniak]]
*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
*[[Xeniph]]

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===
*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===

===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''

===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Starting Fresh, Perhaps===
So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

'''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

'''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

'''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]

'''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

'''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have no objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:No objections, Zoey. Let's do it!! --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 28:54, 26 February 2008 (EST)
:I concur. Although, some of the Tier 3 listings are currently being upkept as Tier 2s... Are they going to be expanded more? I still maintain my opinion that only Tier 5 videos should have transcripts, but since I seem to be the voice of the minority, I suppose we can expand it to two. (We do need to set a firm line, though.)
:I will also say that anything Tier 3 or above should get some actual content regarding the SERIES, and not solely the videos. I think if we can't get that together, it should bump it down a bit in the rankings.
::''Also, I think I should add, as I explained in the chat (and apparently neglected to do so above) my earlier listing was not meant to be definitive in any way, and was simply thrown together based on what little I knew of the series, and what content was available. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.''
:Once the tiers get hashed out, we should archive the discussion and go on to discussions on how exactly to change each series page for the better. They '''all''' could stand some serious work. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:#When you say "consisting of...", does that mean we'll unify all sub-series on one page? i.e., have only one Cassie UGC page then, not separate *cassie* pages?
:#Have you checked whether any series has something special that'd bump them up, being featured in the Community Appreciation Week or something, for example?
:#Will we make The Flock Deal a general offer?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:24, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think Zoey's proposal is proably the fairest one I've seen so far. As someone who spends a lot of their time on the fanfic area of the LGPedia, and as a fan of many of the UGC series out there. I will say this: I think every three months or so there should be a place where people can state their case for why something should change tiers or not. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 27 February 2008 (EST)
:No objections on my end, Zoey. :) And I really like that idea, FH14 -- who's to say every show is going to be the same forevermore?? -- --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:55, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:well, i wanted to try to get iris2009 page into tier 2, no admin besides Jay and Owen and TWj have ever touched it, my fans along with me have cared for the page..all i ask is to keep the 1 page...--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 21:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)
::I can see the reasoning behind a bump-up, especially since the Iris page hasn't gotten horribly over-blown. I can also see an argument for making it Tier 1. I dunno, I could go either way on this, to be honest. (If it does get bumped to Tier 2, I think the page is going to need some rearranging or something; half of the stuff in the introduction isn't really "intro".) I'll wait to see what other people think. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:03, 28 February 2008 (CST)

I hate to upset the applecart, but I have an opinion. (Doesn't everyone?) This is about CassieIsWatching, which is currently listed as a Tier 3. I believe that CassieIsWatching is a special exception, and should be Tier 4. It has done the following: achieved over 250,000 views on just 5 videos; inspired a multitude of Cassie fanfic (including ItsCassie, a Tier 4); inspired OpAphid, the former-official ARG of LG15 and current part of RE88 (a Tier 5); provided a launchpad for the aforementioned OpAphid, which 'gamejacked' CiW's mailbox and responded to its videos; attracted attention of a new audience and provided the majority of LG15.com's forum traffic during its run; historically significant; inspired BreeIsWaiting, which is presumed to have connections to the Creators;and finally, it is currently complete, with around 10 pages, and requires little effort to maintain (as it has ended long, long ago). Again, I don't want to upset matters--I'm not a regular LGPedia contributer--but I strongly believe that CiW should be Tier 4. --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 22:29, 28 February 2008 (CST)

:Sounds reasonable to me...but for the time being, I'm not even sure this will go through...I haven't checked with the propaganda department and the administration yet. (Just came home half an hour ago.)
:Any objections to bumping up CiW should the Revamp go through?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:47, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::I see no problem with bumping CiW up a notch . . . it wasn't just popular in its time but downright infamous. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 14:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::No objections. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 15:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)
:I think you have a very valid point about CIW, and it is something I struggled with as coming up with my "proposed listings." The reason I personally decided against giving it a tier 4 listing was because I have been told countless times by people who played the game that the information we have is incomplete or inaccurate in many places. In my opinion, I think it would take some work by the people who are familiar with the series to get the pages accurate before we would want to work them into tier 4. It seems a little silly to me to expand upon pages with inaccurate information. HOWEVER, if we can find someone who is knowledgable, or is willing to do the research to become knowledgable enough to correct the inaccuracies and fill in the gaps, I agree, cassieiswatching definitely has a place on tier 4... maybe even tier 5 depending on just how much information we end up getting about it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:08, 2 March 2008 (CST)

I agree to mantian the iris page myself, and re do what might need to be changed. ----TJ Marsh

==Schedule==
Since a large part of the previous discussion participants seems to agree with Zoey's listing, and this project has been going on for two months now, I guess it's time to set a schedule for the next phase(s)
*Unless there are no major further objections, I'll create a '''preliminary final listing on February 29th'''. This, if not objected to, will be the master reference list for tier listings.
*If there are no major further objections to the preliminary final listing until '''March 2nd''', then discussion will be be ceased, and we'll commence the Revamp.
*The Revamp will proceed as follows
**'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.
**'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.
**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Immo Regulations|Immo Regulations]].

===Page-list===
*Central portal
*List of videos
*Templates:
**Bottom index
**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
*Character pages
*Actor pages
*Categories to group it all together

===Immo Regulations===
The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page. 
Reasons for revocation can be:
*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.
----
And before you start complaining: These rules are actually quite gracious. It takes less than ten minutes to get a barebones video page up. You have been given three ''days''. It takes less than one minute to add a link to a list. You have been given ''two days''. If your people work as great as you touted, you should be in no danger. But there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that being incapable of doing a ten-minute-job within three days is a very clear sign your section is ''not'' actively being maintained, and since the only reason you have been given the right to create separate pages is that you vouched to keep them maintained, violation of these regulations will lead to the termination of this deal. 
In addition, you should be aware that the pedia doesn't sleep, and it doesn't wait for you. Deadlines will not change because you are on vacation or anything. If your pages go unmaintained just because one person cannot contribute, that's just another sign you cannot handle the workload. 
As said above, the timeframes you have been given are very gracious, especially considering that you don't even have to care for the whole pedia, but just a very, very small subset of its pages. So take what you can get, and keep your section maintained - any complaints will only lead to a re-evaluation of these timeframes, and might very well lead to the administration deciding that you don't really need two days to put up a single link.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::1) I do question whether you have the authority on behalf of the administration to impose regulations but in the end it doesn't matter. 
::2) That fact that this section takes almost half the page is telling. You've obviously spent a great deal of time looking at Flock page histories to see how long it takes for types of edits to be made. I can only assume that your sheriff of these parts and will be keeping a close eye to insure these regulations are met.
::4) These are fan contributions, no one is running to the lgpedia to read transcripts for current vids. It's about archiving. The one thing this process has ignored from the very beginning is how and why these pags are used. They are used differently than the canon series. 
::5) When reading "superfluous content (like the current character placeholders)" is where my needle ticked. We ended season 1 with every character's future uncertain. Since the lgpedia is our only web presence I put the placeholders in to create suspense between seasons and as the season got started as to which characters would return and which new ones would show up. We revealed a new character as recently as last week. You might have a case if I upload new images for this purpose but I used the same image that has been on the page since day one in each case. It just shows that you're looking really hard to find something to complain about and will continue to do so. 
::6) The fact that you've named these "Immo's Regulations" suggest that I somehow am getting special treatment. I don't want or need special treatment. I mean if my people are doing the editing doesn't that ease the burden of other editors? Seems like a fair exchange to me. 
::7) At the end of the day all this appears to be is a petty pathetic attempt to best me and guess what? You win, tell a friend. Our project is very laid back. I don't hold the girls to a video schedule I'm sure as hell am not going to hold them to your regulations. Whoever has edited the Flockipedia has done so without any prodding from me. They are free to still do so. I won't discourage them but I'd expect they won't. Whether FH14 continues to do so is up to him. I'll take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work. So however far back you scale the Flock's pages I expect the administration to maintain them at the same level as others in the same tier.
::--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 18:43, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::#Question all you want...I have no fear of it.
::#Actually, I've got better things to do than to police you...I'm four weeks past schedule on the portal redesign, have to fix character icons and whatnot. But I'm sure FH14 will keep an eye on everything.
::#Yeah...you kinda don't have 3. Cheating on the numbers, are we?
::#So? The fact that your users use your pages differently than the canon ones is a reason they should be allowed to make the pedia as a whole look incomplete? ''Transcript missing'' looks like "The pedia is missing a transcript.", not "Immo had a logical reason not to put up a transcript at the moment, and the pedia is not at fault for this.". You may not care if a transcript is missing, but for us, it means the pedia looks incomplete. The fact that you don't seem to grasp that your pages directly represent LGPedia to the readers explains why you don't give a fuck about our needs. I don't care for what reason you put up transcripts, as long as they're there. Nobody is reading Flock pages thinking "oh, these are immo's pages" - they are reading ''the pedia'', and everything they see falls back on ''the pedia''. When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad, not you.
::#Your needle can tick all it wants. The fact that you had to write a whole thick paragraph to explain these placeholders should tell you it's not obvious. For everyone else, it looks like somebody failed at table building. If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something, so the user knows it's meant to be empty, and not just horrible layouting.
::#Ever heard of "Miranda Laws"? You're a precedent, and the only one getting this special bumping so far. Thus, it's named after you. Why should I name it "Tier 4 Exception Regulations" when, technically, Tier 4 already ''is'' the exception? Face it, you're getting special treatment, and you're the only one getting it so far, so it's named after you. And, just for the sake of mentioning it: Once more, your argument can be spun both ways - deleting all but one Flock pages would also ease our burden, and a lot more than still having to patrol what your users do on 50 pages.
::#Oh, I'm sorry, were you out of arguments? Did you find no way to attack me on the subject matter? I don't care if your project is laid back, how you keep your girls or whatever. It's time you finally grasp this is not about you in any way. It's about the pedia as a whole and all of the fanfic. The only reason it's personalized for you is because you're the only creator who got here trying to defend his creation with nonsense, insults, and pulling strings behind the scenes. You were speaking about how stuff was telling. You know what's telling? That in six points you had, you didn't question a single of the regulations I wrote. All your six points were direct attacks at me. First questioning my authority, then insinuating I was unrightfully thinking of myself as a sort of "pedia police", going on to imply that I just don't understand your ways, that I was unfairly pointing out obvious flaws in your design, that I was highlighting you for no apparent reason, and finally, directly saying I'm picking on you, calling me pathetic. You may think you did a great job at undermining my credibility, insulting me, or whatever the hell you tried there. Fact is, this was your response to the regulations, you did not object to them, so they will go in effect as written, unless the administration intervenes.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (CST)

:::::Again in your effort to "win" you miss the most important point which is where I said I will not follow your regulations nor will I ask anyone else to and I concede what that means in terms of whatever tier the administration deems the Flock should go. Could that be the reason I didn'nt object to the them?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 22:56, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::::::Then I guess this deal is void and your pages will be collapsed.
::::::<nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> Less work for us.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:01, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:::Okay, here's my two cents on this whole thing. You can argue back at me if you want or whatever, but I'm just stating what I took from this.
:::Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.
:::And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing? I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad."
:::You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.
:::Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it? So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.
:::And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?
:::<nowiki>*takes a deep breath and closes the window*</nowiki>
:::[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 01:12, 28 February 2008 (CST)

::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.}}
::::That is what I tried to say - they look nice to ''you'' because you know what they are. For the uninitiated, they look like random crap added by someone who didn't know how to correctly build a table, and had to fill up the remaining cells. I was not suggesting to reveal anything (hence the "or something") - I was merely suggesting to make obvious to ''everyone'' that these images are supposed to be where they are and that they serve a function, and that they aren't just fillers to hold the table together. Immo specifically said he created them to create suspense - would it hurt the suspense to add "New season 2 character?" or something on it? That would give away nothing, have the same effect, and everybody would know it's supposed to be there. But nooooo, instead we add cryptic symbols, expecting everyone to psychically guess their true meaning.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing?}}
::::Zoey.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad."}}
::::And I'm pretty sure Zoey and an armada of KM users were pretty unhappy about it, and said armada did not blame specific, random users, but blamed the general entity "the pedia" for not having transcripts. That's like saying, "I see you already have too many pages to work on, so why do you not want ours to work on, too?" I fail to see your point. (And for the record: I don't watch KM. I am not involved in any KM operation on this site, except for template hardcode fixing. What you say may be true, but I know nothing about it.)
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.}}
::::My statement was not to say that you as a Flock user would go around and check for missing RE transcripts. My point was, the generic user doesn't go "Oh my, FH14 failed to add the second half of transcript XY yet!", but "BAH! The pedia's transcript is incomplete again!". The users don't look at sub-sections or individual users. If a transcript is missing, it's not missing on an episode page of the Flock subsection. It's missing on "the pedia". Thus, any missing transcript gives the pedia as a whole a bad image.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it?}}
::::That was the basis of the deal, yes. The regulations would've caught if you ''didn't'' do that, because then you ''wouldn't'' be self-servicing, and ''would'' require additional help. Had you updated the pages as normal, everything would've been fine, and you'd never have heard of the regulations again.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.}}
::::And that is exactly what's inacceptable. Users don't have a magic page radar that tells them "''Now'' you can come, page's ready!" - they come when they want to look something up. And when the page isn't there, see above - they don't go "Oh damn, Babygurl1853 hasn't added a video page for Flock 64 yet." they go "WTF?? Does the pedia STILL not have a page?? The episode has been out for two weeks!!!". This is what the regulations were for. They set you a certain timeframe. Had you wanted to put the episode links after 10 minutes, ten hours or a day, we wouldn't have cared. We'd just have cared had you not done it within two days, since it's a ten-second-job, after all. You may not care if there is no video page. The readers do. And they blame all of us, not you personally.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?}}
::::It's apparent that you either didn't talk to Immo beforehand, or that Immo intentionally failed to mention certain facts about his live conversations. Rest assured, I know for a fact that this wasn't the first place this deal was suggested, and rest assured I, personally, told him that the volume of pages and their well-maintained condition were greatly speaking for keeping them. (I have logs to prove that, too.)
::::This isn't about me hating Immo. This is about Immo's resistance to respect that the administration of this encyclopedia has to make sure its content is in a reasonable state of maintenance, and that his desire to keep more than 50 pages and more adds to the editing burden we ''all'' have to share. If you don't understand why all of us, ask Immo - I explained it to him multiple times on IRC.
::::As for your last question, if said theoretical fanfic would be eligible for such a deal (i.e. be in Tier 3 and have a reasonable argument to bump up to 4 if it sustains itself), and it agrees to the proposed regulations and accept the consequences should it fail to adhere to the regulations, I'd have no problem with it. It's just that the very fact that you have proven before that you can run the section on your own is what gave Immo the leverage to broker this deal - other fanfics have not shown such self-management capabilities. Nobody, not even me, doubted you could easily stay within the regulations. Especially if you are an active pedia editor, you know exactly that it doesn't take three days to add a main character to the portal. With image upload, with preparations, with extra time for weird bugs, it takes 30 minutes max.
::::And yet, 3 days for a 30 minute task are apparently not good enough for Immo. Whatever. I have proposed the regulations, I can show you countless examples for every task showing that you would've gotten vastly more time then necessary, if that's still not good enough for Immo, that's not my fault. This is not Immo's personal pedia praise party, this is content reorganization. He had fought his way to get his very own special deal, he didn't want it. That's his decision, not mine.
::::In all likelyhood, had Immo agreed, nothing would've have changed for The Flock whatsoever.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:36, 28 February 2008 (CST)

==See also==
*Related discussions:
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-25T23:08:02Z

72.201.161.166:

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criteria is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criteria is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criteria is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criteria is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)