2008-02-28T00:57:31Z

Immortal1: /* Immo Regulations */

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-28T00:43:04Z

Immortal1: /* Immo Regulations */

Immant

2008-02-27T01:10:20Z

Immortal1:

{{Message|title=ATTENTION:|message=There is an ongoing discussion about the expansion and deletion of pages concerning these series. Please contribute [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|here]].}}
{{Person
| name = Immant
| image = Onlyfriends.JPG
| age =
| birthday =
| youtube = immant
| revver = immant
| myspace =
| actor = [[immortal1]]
| first = [[Greetings from the Order.]]
| last = [[A Word to the Wise]]
| color = black
| blogs = [[:Category:Immant videos|List of Immant's videos]]
}}

==Origin==
Immant is a YouTube user that posted two [[fan fiction]] videos before the Ceremony that appear to be addressed to [[Bree]]. In the videos, he praises the addressee for her commitment to the "Order".

Dr. Thomas Immant first appeared on the scene as a shadowy figure but more recently has made an effort to become the more "user-friendly" public face of the [[Order]] until he was mysteriously expelled and forced underground.

==Videos==
1. [[Greetings from the Order.]] 
''Summary'' 
*Dr. Immant established contact with an unknown addressee. 
''Notes'' 
*Immant's YouTube account was started at the same time as lonelygirl15's YouTube user account.
*Gemma later confirms the existence of the Order in [[Learning Egyptian]].
2. [[See you at the ceremony...]] 
''Summary'' 
*Dr. Immant praises the addressee and explains the the life changing significance of The Ceremony. 
''Notes'' 
*This video was broadcast just prior to [[The Ceremony]].
*Dr. Immant wears a hood and attire which is later seen worn by Order members involved in the Ceremony, as well as at least one bald-headed man. Forum speculation begins about whether he was actually there.
3. [[We do not wish to make enemies, only friends.]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes'' 
*His dark attire and sunglasses seem to become the look for new members of the Order as they begin to appear in the [[Breeniverse]].
*This video suggests for the first time that the Order is more then a religion and has great influence and addresses the case of mistaken identity of a bald member of the Order spotted in [[The Ceremony]].
4. [[The Doctor is in]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes''
 

5. [[Seeing the Big Picture]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes''
 

6. [[Order Announcement: New Policy to Combat Misinformation]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes'' 
*This video shows a friendlier public side of Dr. Immant quite different than the shadowy figure we've seen previously, and the ending of the video sets a lighter tone than the others.
7. [[The Order MAQs (Most Asked Questions)]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes''
 
8. [[The Shut Eye]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes'' 
* Dr. Immant's musing of "Nosy reporter?" is probably a shout-out to [[Nikki Bower]], or a reference to [[Virginia Heffernan]].
9. [[Flee]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes''
 
10. [[A Word to the Wise]]
 
''Summary''
 
''Notes''
 

==Supplementary Video==
[[Dream 12]]

==Diagnosing Dr. Immant==
In the video [[See you at the ceremony...]] he seems to be claiming he will be at [[The Ceremony (ritual)|Bree's ceremony]] but will not be seen, and is shown wearing similar attire to the people in the video [[The Ceremony]], before it came out. Also, in [[The Ceremony]], [[Daniel]] films a bald man who perhaps bears some resemblance to Immant, but Immant claims in his "[[We do not wish to make enemies, only friends.]]" video that while he was at the ceremony, he does not believe that he was spotted there by anyone. Since the [[Denderah|Order of Denderah]] seems to be aware of Daniel's presence at the ceremony, they probably know about the video he took and who does and does not appear in it.

Later, in Bree's video "[[On The Run]]," we glimpse a bald man who was probably the guy at the ceremony. We see his face this time, and he looks nothing like Immant. However, Dr. Immant had previously stated in his video [[We do not wish to make enemies, only friends.]] that it was tradition for men to shave their heads after ascending to a certain level in the Order.

[[Image:Order.jpg|thumb|right|Current logo at the end of Dr. Immant's vids.]]In Immant's earlier videos, he used a protected mark of the religious organization [[Ordo Templi Orientis|OTO]]. His response to fan requests to remove the symbol has been reported as gracious and accomodating.

Analysis of the [http://lonelygirl15.com/?page_id=112 Member Directory] would suggest that suspected characters who did not immediately register their names are not officially affiliated with the LG15 project. Notably late to register are [http://lonelygirl15.com/?page_id=113&member=337 nikkibowerreport], member #337, and [http://lonelygirl15.com/?page_id=113&member=129 Dr. Immant], member #129. New characters may, however, be registered much later as their names are currently unknown and therefore not in danger of being stolen.

A unique feature of LG15 is that while characters may not be part of the original storyline, the Creators have stated that Fan fiction storylines can influence and cross that of the main storyline. This is alleged by the Creators to have already happened with OpAphid. It is possible that while Dr. Immant may not have started as [[canon]] he very well could become so.

==Traditionalists vs. Reformists==
*Note: Dr. Immant is a fanfiction creation, and as such, his description (below) of the Order's two opposing camps is not necessarily the way the Order is intended to operate in the official LG15 storyline. There may be some overlap, as Dr. Immant's videos have had some crossover points with the original storyline. (See section "Diagnosing Dr. Immant" above). Most of all, this information is useful in understanding Immant's story arcs and underlying messages.

Dr. Immant's videos provide a glimpse into the alleged inner workings of the Order. In addition to offering some background on its foundation in astrology, the videos reveal a rift between the two political affiliations within the Order: the Reformists and the Traditionalists. The Order's purpose, traditions and ceremonies, religious structure, astrological influences and yes, its values are common ground for both. They differ in terms of the philosophy in which the Order should run its operations.

The Traditionalist clings on to the "by any means necessesary approach" that includes the methods of fear, intimidation, force and assassination, which often lead to the needless loss of life. They are stuck in an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. In the old days this was necessary to insure the Order stayed in the shadows. If the general public knew their world was being shaped, surely they would resist. It's different in the modern era. The Order is not only known but has a proven track record and people don't ask the questions they know they don't want answers to. They are content to let the Order do what they do because deep down, they know it must be done. The Reformist sees this as an opportunity. Now is the time to operate through political power, social status and economic influence.

The Reformists are few in number. What progress they have made is largely due to the fact that a few of the more prominent members are with them. Most Traditionalists don't even regard them as a threat. The radical Traditionalists are what the KGB were to the old Soviet Republic. They no doubt have seen that the old hardliners there were unable to change and were eventually left behind.

Change is slow within the Order. There are no bloody coups to stage. The Reformists must be content to spread their message and grow in number until the current leadership dies off. These prominent members of the Reformists can then ascend into some of those leadership positions. This is predestined. The stars have always governed everything the Order does and this is no different. As the elders die off it will be the stars who determine who will ascend to their positions. The real battle is to win these would-be high ranking officials over to your chosen political affiliation before they ascend. Perhaps the next to ascend will be a Reformist, or perhaps that day will never come. Either way, to go against this process would be to go against one of the Order's most fundamental beliefs and thus there are harsh penalties against those who would interfere with members predestined to ascend to positions of power within the Order. These members are protected just as any other high ranking official of the Order. This is why the Tradionalists and Reformists can't kill each other off.

==Links==
*[http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=129 Dr. Immant's LG15 Member Profile]
*[http://www.immantcreative.com/ Immant's website]

[[Category: Fan fiction]]

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T23:06:23Z

Immortal1: /* Starting Fresh, Perhaps */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. After participating in the discussion I now think when it comes to this subject many are just uninformed and unaware. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and eleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]], {{youtube-user|iluuvme}}
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff. 2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website. The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Starting Fresh, Perhaps==
So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

'''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

'''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

'''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]

'''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

'''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have no objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T23:05:00Z

Immortal1: /* Starting Fresh, Perhaps */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. After participating in the discussion I now think when it comes to this subject many are just uninformed and unaware. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and eleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]], {{youtube-user|iluuvme}}
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff. 2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website. The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Starting Fresh, Perhaps==
So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

'''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

'''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

'''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]

'''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

'''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have now objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T21:20:24Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. After participating in the discussion I now think when it comes to this subject many are just uninformed and unaware. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and eleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff. 2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website. The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T21:16:05Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff. 2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website. The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T21:12:46Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T21:10:04Z

Immortal1:

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''
Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

-How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
-How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
-How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
-How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
-How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
-And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
-How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T20:18:28Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T20:10:45Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''acrowleyorder'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T20:06:23Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and elleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''acrowleyorder'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T19:55:43Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''acrowleyorder'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T19:52:35Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''acrowleyorder'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T11:13:34Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T11:11:45Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''
|These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
|The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
|Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
|LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
|(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T11:07:23Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''
These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
-The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance.
-Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
-LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T07:02:42Z

Immortal1: /* Reply to all */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T06:12:41Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T06:09:21Z

Immortal1: /* Reply to all */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

User:Immortal1

2008-02-26T05:51:18Z

Immortal1:

== About ==

immortal1 is originally from NY and now resides in Hollywood CA.

 
*[http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8630 Developed and pitched] [[12 in 12]] format
*Created [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=8909&sid=c57e78aabdb1238fb8b61bfdce443421 The Other Girl Video Challenge]
*Redesigned [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=135&sid=5b6f38fb3958eb8336c3a4fd77a549f0 This is Your Story Now (LG15 UGC and fan-fiction)] forum section
*Introduced [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=13891&sid=5b6f38fb3958eb8336c3a4fd77a549f0 UVC Honor Code for Derivative Videos]
 
*Created the Dr. [[Immant]] spinoff
*Created [[The Flock]]
*Created [[N3ural N3t]]
*Story Consultant and Technical Advisor for [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Red_Territory theCoalition]
*Story Consultant for [[LOSTchild17]]
*Story Consultant for [[Xeniph]]
*Wrote Tenacious Threesome and organized Operation Shooting Star for [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Red_Territory theCoalition]
*Wrote [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkaa5Z8GWZ4 jonastko2d: Marty Gras]
*Came up for the concept for [[ApotheosisAZ]]'s [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IeOxvyEgeI Lose Weight Fast!"]
*Wrote [[Iris2009]]'s [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLDC3R4tpdY I must of missed something.] and {{revver|232382/flv|Dear DB}}
*Appeared in [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse Dreams from the Breeniverse:] [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Dream_12 Dream 12: What's Up Doc? (Dr. Immant)]
*Contributed to the [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]] class and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kKmgNJ2FzQ graduation ceremony.]
 
*Attended HOO Seminar Live Event from [[It's A Cult]]
*[http://www.lg15today.blogspot.com/ lg15today] contributor
*[[Chatroom Regulars]]

== Userboxes ==

{|
|-
|{{Userbox FanVid3}}
|-
|{{User 100edits}}
|-
|{{Userbox Immant}}
|-
|{{Userbox Orange}}
|-
|{{Userbox 14Hours}}
|-
|{{Userbox SMRT}}
|}

[[Category: Chatroom Regulars]]

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T03:18:15Z

Immortal1: /* Reply to all */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T02:56:16Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::All fanfics are not derivatives by default!!! Are you serious? Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T02:45:31Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::All fanfics are not derivatives by default!!! Are you serious? Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T02:35:49Z

Immortal1: /* Bias */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::All fanfics are not derivatives by default!!! Are you serious? Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-26T02:33:17Z

Immortal1: /* Reply to all */

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].

* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)

==Agreed listings==
===Tier 1===
*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.

===Tier 2===


*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].

*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?

===Tier 3===


===Tier 4===
*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''


===Tier 5===
*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them. 
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]]) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::All fanfics are not derivatives by default!!! Are you serious? Try reading the TOS.
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times." I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's see if you feel the same way 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed. 
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times. 
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000? 
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P 
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.
:-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] (should be listed, but not as a spin-off), [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-25T23:02:22Z

Immortal1: /* Reply to all */

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-02-25T23:01:35Z

Immortal1: /* Suggested Tiers */