LGPedia - User contributions [en]

User:QtheC

2008-11-12T04:36:08Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* [http://www.lg15.com LG15.com] (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 Current Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Original Lonelygirl15 Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://lg15todayroundtable.blogspot.com LG15 Today Round Table] blog ([http://lg15todayroundtable.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forum.thefuselage.com/ The Fuselage] forum ([http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=38115 QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction] forum ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows] forum
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

* October 14-15, 2008 - On InsideLG15, Amanda commented under [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/14/boo Boo!], "QtheC just mentioned adding a pumpkin carving element to this celebration. I love it! Let the carving begin." and in a later article, [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/15/lg15-halloween LG15 Halloween], Amanda wrote, "Many of you, including blonde fairy, nomorelurking, and QtheC, have changed your avatars to the Halloween theme."

* October 15, 2008 - During a [http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/10/hymn-of-none-chat.html live chat] ([http://brightsilence.no-ip.org/lglog.txt full chat transcript here]) about finding the location of an item shown in LG15: The Resistance video [[Mystery Box]], [[Hymn of None]] mentioned "QtheC may have been onto something earlier today" and "possibly to do with the numbers listed, as QtheC suggested earlier today."

* November 10, 2008 - [[Maggie]]'s video blog, [[We Are The Resistance]], displayed images of pictures of community members including the Halloween version of QtheC's LG15.com avatar (William Shakespeare with a Jack-O-Lantern head), and she also mentioned QtheC by name, along with Veela-Valoom, Toad, and Erica Rocks.

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-10-17T00:11:01Z

QtheC: /* On the Web */ LG15 Today Round Table

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[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* [http://www.lg15.com LG15.com] (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 Current Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Original Lonelygirl15 Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://lg15todayroundtable.blogspot.com LG15 Today Round Table] blog ([http://lg15todayroundtable.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forum.thefuselage.com/ The Fuselage] forum ([http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=38115 QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction] forum ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows] forum
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

* October 14-15, 2008 - On InsideLG15, Amanda commented under [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/14/boo Boo!], "QtheC just mentioned adding a pumpkin carving element to this celebration. I love it! Let the carving begin." and in a later article, [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/15/lg15-halloween LG15 Halloween], Amanda wrote, "Many of you, including blonde fairy, nomorelurking, and QtheC, have changed your avatars to the Halloween theme."

* October 15, 2008 - During a [http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/10/hymn-of-none-chat.html live chat] ([http://brightsilence.no-ip.org/lglog.txt full chat transcript here]) about finding the location of an item shown in LG15: The Resistance video [[Mystery Box]], [[Hymn of None]] mentioned "QtheC may have been onto something earlier today" and "possibly to do with the numbers listed, as QtheC suggested earlier today."

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-10-17T00:09:02Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ Mystery Box Chat

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* [http://www.lg15.com LG15.com] (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 Current Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Original Lonelygirl15 Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forum.thefuselage.com/ The Fuselage] forum ([http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=38115 QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction] forum ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows] forum
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

* October 14-15, 2008 - On InsideLG15, Amanda commented under [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/14/boo Boo!], "QtheC just mentioned adding a pumpkin carving element to this celebration. I love it! Let the carving begin." and in a later article, [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/15/lg15-halloween LG15 Halloween], Amanda wrote, "Many of you, including blonde fairy, nomorelurking, and QtheC, have changed your avatars to the Halloween theme."

* October 15, 2008 - During a [http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/10/hymn-of-none-chat.html live chat] ([http://brightsilence.no-ip.org/lglog.txt full chat transcript here]) about finding the location of an item shown in LG15: The Resistance video [[Mystery Box]], [[Hymn of None]] mentioned "QtheC may have been onto something earlier today" and "possibly to do with the numbers listed, as QtheC suggested earlier today."

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-10-16T23:59:02Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ LG15 Halloween

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* [http://www.lg15.com LG15.com] (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 Current Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Original Lonelygirl15 Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forum.thefuselage.com/ The Fuselage] forum ([http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=38115 QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction] forum ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows] forum
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

* October 14-15, 2008 - On InsideLG15, Amanda commented under [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/14/boo Boo!], "QtheC just mentioned adding a pumpkin carving element to this celebration. I love it! Let the carving begin." and in a later article, [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/10/15/lg15-halloween LG15 Halloween], Amanda wrote, "Many of you, including blonde fairy, nomorelurking, and QtheC, have changed your avatars to the Halloween theme."

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

Talk:Mary Feuer

2008-09-19T23:16:09Z

QtheC: external links to Mary Feuer's blogs - to add to main page

Additional External Links (added here since the main page is locked):

*[http://marysstories.blogspot.com/ Mary Feuer's Story Blog]
*[http://maryfeuer.blogspot.com/ Mary Feuer's Blog]

User:QtheC

2008-09-15T18:05:11Z

QtheC: /* On the Web */ adding The Fuselage forum

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* [http://www.lg15.com LG15.com] (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 Current Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Original Lonelygirl15 Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forum.thefuselage.com/ The Fuselage] forum ([http://forum.thefuselage.com/member.php?u=38115 QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction] forum ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows] forum
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On Inside LG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-09-15T17:57:35Z

QtheC: rearranging, adding LG15 profiles, wwwShows

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== On the Web ==
* LG15.com (QtheC's [http://www.lg15.com/user_profile/view/10026 New Profile] | [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?page_id=113&member=6883 Old Profile])
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today] blog ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://wwwshows.blogspot.com wwwShows] blog (list of online shows maintained by QtheC)
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv Old theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On Inside LG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Userboxes ==
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony

2008-08-29T20:12:09Z

QtheC: change the editing warning message

{{pending discussion|Revamping FanFic|Character Pages Discussion}}
[[Image:GustaveCailbotteThe Balcony1880-Cropped.jpg|left|thumb|150px|A couple of [[LGPedia]] admins ([[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] & [[User:Phoenician|Phoenician]]) take a breather to admire the view from [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]

[[Image:snowwhitebalcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|[[User:Zoey|Zoey]], one of your [[LGPedia]] admins, frolics with the doves on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]

Welcome to '''Lucy's Balcony''', a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the [[LGPedia]]. This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns. To start a new thread, [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LGPedia:Lucy%27s_Balcony&action=edit&section=new click here]. Please remember to sign your posts by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end.

For old or inactive conversations, visit [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/archive|Lucy's archive]].

 

__TOC__
__NEWSECTIONLINK__

==Video Dates In Pages==

This is not a critical issue, but something worth discussion. At this point we are 18 months into the lg15 series. There are areas of Lg15 plot which were very important at certain points (like LaRezisto, or Gemma, or Tachyon), that later resolved or become less important. When viewing pages which discuss key character or plot issues (like Gemma, or Spencer, or the Order of Denderah, etc.), I myself find it useful to know when the videos about that subject were released, without having to click on every video link. I think in a chronological way. Thus, I sometimes put video dates into an lgpedia article to let readers easily know when something occurred in the context of the whole storyline. Like, for [[Ted McKinley]] i put it "He first appeared at the press conference filmed in [[What's Going on?]] (Oct. 19, 2007), where he helped ...". That way the reader easily knows, ok, this Ted guy is not relevant to the first year of the show.

We have no set convention for dealing with this issue that I am aware of, and wondered whether we should set one. I am not saying that every video link needs a date after it like a legal brief would cite cases, but there are articles where it would be useful. (For example, [[The order]] article has them; [[Emma]] does not). Even if we don't come up with any policy, I wanted to raise the issue for people to think about when editing. Thoughts? --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 08:19, 20 December 2007 (CST)

== Revamping FanFic ==
{{Message|title=Discussion has been moved.|message=Please continue the discussion here: [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|The Mighty FanFic Revamp: Part Deux]]}}
===The "Plan"===
Right now, I think we are faced with a situation where the LGPedia has become overloaded with fan fiction pages and this is a problem. Now, don't get me wrong, I am absolutely '''not''' saying that fan fiction pages on the pedia are bad. Quite the opposite, I'm saying that I think they're good! But with the massive amounts of scattered info we have now, I think we are making it much harder for anyone to really understand what's going on. We also have a lot of extraneous pages, (like video transcripts for obscure series that do not add value to the section on that series) which ultimately only overwhelms anyone who comes here to learn more about a fanfic series.

So, what I propose is this. I think that we should do a massive cleanup of the fanfic section of the site. I think that instead of treating the section as a free-for-all, we should try to get some sort of streamlined guide to just how each series will be treated.

====The Types====
I think we should divide the fanfic up into five types as far as how we deal with them:

'''Type 1''' - These series get a single page similar to the current [[Lonelyjew15]] page. They consist of one page where all the information you'd need to get an understanding of the series is found. The main things that show up on these pages are '''plot summary''', '''character info''', and '''important links''' for watching and following the story more closely. There can be other sections, such as a "Notes" section, but mostly the pages should follow the same general format. The page will serve as a "run-down" to the series it covers.

'''Type 2''' - Unlike Type 1 series, Type 2 series will all be collected together on one massive page where each series will have its own description. Most of the time the descriptive info on these series is similar to what is contained in a Type 1 series, but to a lesser extent.

'''Type 3''' - Like with any rule, there can and probably will be exceptions. What would go on these pages would be determined on an "as needed" basis.

'''Type 4''' - This type covers any major relevant ARGs or series. Since series in this type tend to be complex, they often will require more than one page. [[Cassieiswatching]] and [[redearth88]] are great examples of this. Because of the large-scale undertaking of these series, this type will have to be admin approved before they can go forward.

'''Type 5''' - There are some series that simply don't belong on the LGPedia at all (adult film entertainment, anyone? :)). These ones do not need pages.

====Qualifying====
I think each series needs to be examined individually to determine where it best fits within the above types. A strong case should have to be made regarding why any particular series should receive a type of page. Some good reasons would be: number of subscribers, average number of views per video, notibility in the Breeniverse, and many more. Because of this, I believe we should evaluate each series independantly.

If the idea takes off, I'm happy to create a page where we can discuss statuses for each series. I'm not going to do that now though, because I want to make sure people are on board for the idea first.

Hopefully you guys like this idea, and hopefully you are on board with it! I truly believe it will do wonders for both getting more editors (who now mostly sit befuddled, wondering how to add such elaborate fanfic pages) and for getting new viewers for fanfic series, as viewers will be less confused when the content is laid out in a neat fashion. Please let me know what you think!!! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:57, 21 December 2007 (CST)

===Comments===
:''Yes, I made a section for comments, this would be too confusing otherwise, lol. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:57, 21 December 2007 (CST)''
::Well, if there's one project to rocket us to 2008, it would be this. Everything above sounds like a great starting point. To clarify, videos ''must'' be fiction, yes, in order to qualify for the above types. They can't just be a LG/KM fan responding, commenting, or spoofing (of course, if they've made themselves into an in-universe fictional character then that's different). I don't know, I just get the feeling that we're going to have to be painstakenly detailed in our discussions in the matter :P --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:09, 21 December 2007 (CST)
----
::Since I've been trying to get rid of the fan-series mess ever since I joined, I of course support this motion, but I'd like rules on series template creation to be included, i.e. whether your "Type 4" series should get their own blog- and other templates, or if they should use stuff like FakeBlog. I don't quite feel like eliminating another dozen uselessly created, outdated fan blog templates.
::It should also be possible to create a Template:FanCharBlock, that simply takes a page and styling options as arguments - so you'd have ''one'' fan-char-block template, and the contents would be located at pages like Redearth88/charblock.
::I do think your typification scale is counterintuitive, though - imo, it should be an ascending or descending scale, e.g.
::{|
!Level 0
|No pages
!or, alternatively,
|width="20"|
!Tier 1
|Full coverage
|-
!Level 1
|Single page, few information
!descending instead of
|
!Tier 2
|Tier 3 Exceptions
|-
!Level 2
|Single page, comprehensive information
!ascending
|
!Tier 3
|Single page, comprehensive information
|-
!Level 3
|Level 2 exceptions
|
|
!Tier 4
|Single page, few information
|-
!Level 4
|Full coverage
|
|
!Tier 5
|No pages
|}
::No matter how we name a series's grade, we have to find an acceptable way to rate them that doesn't look like pure arbitrariness to the community...something with hard data, like combined viewcount of the first twenty videos or something, with no chance to be selected before the series reaches at least twenty vids (unless it ends before that).
::Beyond that, I suggest creating a Portal:Community, or use the existing (unused and barely known) [[LGPedia:Community Portal]] page to create a portal similar to the series ones, which only reports about Tier 1/Level 5/Type 4 series - like new Redearth videos released, link to series mainpages and similar things.
::And more or less independent from that, the topic of spoofs that Pheon brought up is interesting...although I agree that mere replies should (of course) not be listed, certain spoofs should at least be collected on a central "LG15 Spoofs" page or something similar (or do we have something like that already?) - because especially milo's recent works are quite funny and deserve long-term exposure.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:07, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Let me just clarify, this discussion is JUST for fanfic SERIES and how they will be treated on the pedia. Any discussion about what to do about it after the fact is arbitrary at this point, as creating a portal cannot happen unless we have some sort of focus. If we want to create a portal, or any other means of featuring the fanfic AFTER THE FACT, that discussion should take place '''after the fact'''. So let's please not discuss that at this time.

Also, I agree that there are many notable spoof videos and other notable single videos. I don't really think we need to decide anything definite for that at the moment, because that's not really what this discussion is about. However, I think making a single page where we list all of the videos with some sort of description or whatnot would work. Really though, that's also something we can discuss after the fact if need be, and not what this discussion should focus on.

Thanks. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:47, 21 December 2007 (CST)

----
Some quick points...

* I don't really get all this levels and tiers stuff. For one thing it does help new series. If someone starts a new series and wants to make character pages or transcript pages why should they be penalized from doing so just because they are new?

* Second "Fan Fiction" is a bad catch all category. The accepted industry related term is User Generated Content or (UGC), and while that applies to derivative series it doesn't apply to original series. The distinction in my mind being that a story be dependent on being a user of the site.

* I think you should really work with theCs and BK on this. There is a upcoming redesign that will effect UGC and the way it's presented and I assume terminology figures into that. I would think it would be logical tha the lgpedia be consistent with that.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:50, 21 December 2007 (CST)

:In reply to your points, in order:
:*The idea is not to "penalize" anybody. The idea is to keep the LGPedia clean. When a new series starts out, there is no sure-fire way of knowing how many hits they'll get, how notable they'll be, whether they'll even stick around, etc. Plenty of times we have people create something on the LGPedia when their series is new, and then stop adding things, which either leaves the burden of keeping a minor series up to date on the LGPedians, or leaves the LGPedia looking messy and incomplete, which is not "good for buisness," if you will. We have also had new series come on and create a lot of pages (some of whom eventually stopped, and the burden was shifted on to LGPedians, often me :() and then they decided they no longer wanted their pages on LGPedia, and asked us to delete all of that hard work. That just seems counter-productive. Instead, what makes sense, at least to me, is when a new series starts, their content can be featured on a smaller scale, and as they progress and we see what happens, we can easily promote the series to a higher level. There is ''nothing'' that says that the "level" or "tier" or whatever term we use is set in stone. Like I said, we are not looking to "penalize" anyone, but to keep things clean and effective from a Pedia standpoint.

:*The term "fan fiction" is used in this dicussion simply because it is what the "Category" on LGPedia is called and has been since... well, I'd say the dawn of time, but I'm not sure how accurate that is :P. Either way, it is used in this discussion for that reason, and not to disrespect any UGC or other content-creators.

:*Of course BK and the C's can be in on this discussion. But I wanted to bring it to LGPedia first, as this is, after all, a community site, and when I present the thoughts to BK/C's, I figured it is best to have a solid idea of where the community stands.

:Hope this clears some stuff up, at least about where I'm coming from! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:14, 21 December 2007 (CST)
----
:{{quote|Immortal1|I don't really get all this levels and tiers stuff. For one thing it does help new series. If someone starts a new series and wants to make character pages or transcript pages why should they be penalized from doing so just because they are new?}}
:Counter-question: Why should a "series" that has barely released one episode occupy one episode page, one general description page, two character pages, two "xxx's blog" categories, a general category, a blog template and a character index template?
:Just to add some math to Zoey's reply: We're talking about 9 pages for a "series" of one episode with two characters. If the "series"'s creators then decide to be even more important and add pages for the actors, director and other staff, as well as filmography categories for them, then you're (with only one camera man as staff) at 19 pages for one episode with two characters already.
:And now imagine this: The "series" gets a mere 50 views on youtube, adds a second episode that never gets added to the pedia, and two weeks later, the projects is dead. And we're stuck with 19 meaningless pages, just because somebody made ''one'' video.
:I have said this in the past, but I think I'll have to repeat it: I have no intent to belittle the efforts of the content creating part of the community - but the fact that somebody somewhere made something and declared it to be connected to the Breeniverse does not automatically make it significant enough to be included on LGPedia.
:There is certain stuff that, no matter how much effort and love was invested in it, the general community just doesn't care about. The deciding factors for LGPedia pages are prominence and impact of the page's subject matter - not personal vanity.

:Just think about it this way: There are [[The party guests|canon characters]] and [[Cameos|actors]] of the official main series that don't have their own pages - if we don't even give every ''canon'' character his own page, why should we add pages for ''non''-canon characters that only five people in the community know so far?
:If a series grows and becomes popular, it is ''inevitable'' to branch it out into multiple pages and categorize it - simply to conquer the growing amount of information. But if all information on a series fits on one page with no loss of clarity, then that's a pretty good sign it doesn't need multiple pages.

:Zoey: Touching that topic, maybe we should assign "series maintainers" for branching out series. i.e. if LeetBlogger15 wants to add separate episode pages for a medium series, we could allow it under the condition that he actively maintains them, and delete them straight away if he doesn't. That way, series of a certain size could branch out without you getting a headache over half-finished pages and dead links. If it looks like crap and the page isn't maintained, it just gets deleted and the creator loses his chance to branch out due to lack of encyclopaedic interest (b/c, if other people had cared for the pages, they'd have fixed them).
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:49, 22 December 2007 (CST)
----
'''My response to this whole thing:'''

I love the idea of categorizing UGC/FanFic like this. Right now, the 'Pedia is a big mess full of barely notable "series" and the characters of that "series." (I have to say - and am sorry to say - that I am responsible with the community for a lot of that clutter.)

And I love Zoey's original Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, Type 4, and Type 5 ideas. However, I'm a bit confused as to what Type 3 is. Could anyone clear that up for me? What exactly are you talking about by exceptions? Hmm?

Just some comments/clear community understandings of Type 1... So, what I'm understanding is that Type 1 is a notable video series with more than 4 main characters and at least more than 15 videos. Type 1 series (whether they are Fan Fiction ''or'' User Generated Content) would only get 1 page with a template - however, I'm not liking the current fact that the Type 1 example [[Lonelyjew15]] has a Person template... shouldn't there be like a FanShow template? The sections on the Type 1 series page would include a summary at the top (no section given), a characters section with brief character blurbs and actors if known (Characters and Cast section), a section with the production credits, if available (Production Crew section), and a section with links to where fans could watch the series and if there are any forums about it, etc. (External Links section). They would be in Category:Type 1 fan fiction.

Now onto Type 2... My understanding is that Type 2 is basically a Type 1 that is not as notable. Basically the same stuff, with less comprehensive information. Right? They would be in Category:Type 2 fan fiction.

Type 3... I do not understand what a Type 3 is. Could somebody please clear this up for the community? They would be in Category:Type 3 fan fiction.

Type 4... Major ARGs or fan series that are very notable, such as [[Redearth88]] or [[Cassieiswatching]], would get more than one page with Major character pages, Cast pages, Episode pages, etc. The main series page would be included in Category:Type 4 fan fiction.

Type 5... tsk tsk. Type 5 doesn't belong on the Pedia. No categories, please.

About using the Community Portal... Renegade, I like your idea about using the now hardly used Community Portal as sort of a portal for fan fiction. :) Type 4 would get episode pages linked, and it would be noted whenever Type 1, Type 2, or Type 3 released videos (they would just get linked to their YouTube video page, however).

:)

Comments? Concerns? Questions?

Thanks,

:[[User:SilverBULLETx3|  '''•Silver•'''  ]] [[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|Contribs]] 13:07, 23 December 2007 (CST)
:Zoey specifically stated we're not supposed to discuss portals or any other "later" stuff, I think we should respect that. We'll have enough time to do that once we figured out which content is important enough in the first place.
:As for elaborating on the types, my previous table makes it pretty clear, imo: You have one "category" of series that get no coverage at all, simply because they're not notable. The next level gets a single page, with maybe a paragraph or two, giving an overview of the series. The next level still gets only a single page, but more comprehensive information, like a list of episodes and characters, and a general plot outline. The level after that is the "exception" level - these are theoretically on the level before, only big enough for a single page, but for a special reason get the big treatment - [[Lonelygirl362436]] would be such an example. It only has 1 1/2 human characters and three episodes, so it shouldn't get the full set of pages - but it was made by the Creators and had very high prominence in the community, so gets treated like the next and highest level: A full set of pages and categories, akin to the canon series.
:And yes, it'd be possible to create a full set of customizable fan templates to be used, in order to eliminate all the custom saved ones.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:43, 23 December 2007 (CST)

:::Just to add my input here, I like the idea. Of course, all the details have to be ironed out, and one inherent difficulty with the system is that it is somewhat subjective. To fix this somewhat, I do think ''some'' objective standard should be set (as has been mentioned) like number of views or number of videos in order for a series to reach a certain level/tier. Personally I think view count would be better since having a lot of videos does not necessarily mean that the series is popular. For including videos on the massive "fan fiction" page (or whatever it's called), I think we should be ''fairly'' liberal in what gets added. Obviously, we don't want to be too liberal, but it takes minimal effort to add a short description about a series, and it can provide much-needed publicity for a new series. Maybe we could even split this page up into different types of fanfic series, like ARGs, spoofs (if we include them), spinoffs, etc. This should allow more series to be added without things looking as cluttered. Clearly, then, if we're liberal about this page, we'd be much more conservative about series which get more coverage. Writing an entire page on a series can take some time, and writing transcripts can take a ''long'' time ([[Jonas Conference Call]] anyone?), and there's no point wasting time writing them if no one really cares. Oh, and I like the idea of the customizable fan templates, Renegade. That'll standardize things and remove a lot of clutter. This whole thing is definitely a touchy subject, but I think everyone is handling it well. I hope we reach a good solution because this is something that's needed to be done for a long time now.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 19:48, 23 December 2007 (CST)

::::I don't understand why the number of main characters in a show needs to be a factor in deciding whether or not it is worthy of a certain rank/class/type/tier/level/zone/whatever. ItsCassie, anyone? --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 19:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)

:::::Nobody ever said it has to be one - it was just part of the example. One new character and three videos is vastly smaller than Maddison Atkins or Redearth are, for example.
:::::First and foremost, "notability" is the important factor. In itscassie's case, video view counts would probably checked, and general community prominence would be tried to assess.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:53, 23 December 2007 (CST)

::::::: Ah, okay; I apologize. I misunderstood. The number of characters was just being thrown out as an example, not something set in stone. I agree that notability should be the most important thing in deciding what gets put in what tier. For example, CassieIsWatching, while lacking a large story or many characters, had a HUGE following and a HUGE effect on the Breeniverse (Glenn created OpAphid after seeing CiW, which led to many events in LG15 from Nov. 06 to Mar. 07... Later led to RE88, etc.) --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 21:06, 23 December 2007 (CST)

Here's my two cents... I agree that guidelines definitely need to be set up. A great chunk of the "fanfic/UGC/Whatever you want to call it" seems to be the "New Girl" pages. A problem I have seen is that, with the exception of the Flock, the new girls are the most frequently... neglected, for lack of a better word. I'm sure there are other pages that also suffer from this, and we should find a way to condense information in places...

Credit Categories: The only UGC series that are significant enough to merit categories for filmography, credits, etc. would be OpAphid, Redearth88/MaddisonAtkins, and Cassieiswatching (if said info were ever to be released).

Response/Stand-Alone Videos: These should be evaluated on an individual basis. Many of these only take up the space of one page (both video and poster) and function fine ([[Deemontreal]], [[breeiswaiting]], etc.)

Ties to Canon: Videos that fall in the gray territory should also be considered ([[Paulmark18]], [[watchyourjack]], [[Immant]], etc.)

Cassiemania: Maybe there could be a page of Cassie-spinoffs that could be restricted to one page, (in the way that the "List of New Girls" page is set up.) ([[Cassieresurrection]], [[Frankiswaking]], [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]], etc.) (although some may merit more)

New Girl Mania: Maybe same solution as the one for Cassie listed above? Why have that list of New Girls page AND a stand-alone page? (Again, some may merit more).

The argument may be made that the level of info given on, say, the [[lonelyjew15]] page isn't enough. Some series have successfully had more information than that and kept it limited to one page ([[TheLadyLazarus]]).

Wow, that turned out longer than I intended it to. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:21, 24 December 2007 (EST)
:We need to seriously look over [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]]. All of their videos are transcribed and treated as a series. I know some of them got expanded into series or are a part of one, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:49, 21 February 2008 (CST)

==Series Redesign Discussion==
'''This is independent of any discussion regarding tier placement for now, although once we agree on tiers, further discussion should go on here.'''
===Redearth88===
As I was telling Zoey, I want to redesign the base template being used for spin-offs, as I find it repulsive. More on that later. For the time being, though, I've designed [[Redearth88/Sandbox|a semi-decent replacement for the RE88 portal]]. (It needs to be done; I hate how it's being referred to as a portal but looks like a crappy write-up section.) It still needs some work, obviously; I just hashed it together in about 20 minutes. So let me know what you guys think, and feel free to edit away on it.

''On a related note, we should figure out exactly what will be listed as part of the RE88 portal, and what will be considered wholly separate.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:42, 27 February 2008 (CST)

:I for one love the new look. It looks much less cluttered than the previous one. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 15:30, 27 February 2008 (EST)

::I also like the new look. Now we just have to figure out what goes to the MA portal and what goes to the RE88 portal.

:::Madisson Atkins is not getting its own portal. It is, for all intents and purposes, within the Redearth universe, and will be getting a redesign using the same color scheme. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:50, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

'''Note:''' The new design has been rolled out earlier than expected, since the series shouldn't be impacted by the ongoing revamp, and there was a general consensus (based on people viewing the sandbox and not touching it). - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 14:24, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

===New Series Template and General guidelines for All===
I just gone putting together my [[User:Shiori/Template|redesigned template]] for series that use it. It's not the best in the world, but it resembles what we have currently and sets some important guidelines that have been argued recently, which I really think need to be hashed out now before we set off redesigning things.
<ol>
<li>All series should have a summary on the page. No one will find a series valuable if they don't know what it is. (My idea for a standard set for the summary is something of the following, but it's more subjective than this: "It should be explanatory enough that someone with no idea of what any of the series listed here would be able to understand. (i.e. Assume no one has previous knowledge of lonelygirl15 or KateModern.)")</li>
<li>Please, for the love of Jehovah, follow these standards: Videos should be listed as direct links to the video, unless they are transcribed. Transcriptions are not recommended, but if they exist, there should be NO direct links to the video in the listing (since they'll have it on the transcript page). In essence, any of the following are a no-no on the listing of videos for a series: <pre>Video name ([external_link])
[[transcript|Video name]] ([external_link])</pre>
We want this:<pre>[external_link Video name]
[[transcript|Video name]]</pre>
</li>
</ol>
Keep in mind that the template I designed is meant to be applied to series that will end up in Tiers 3 or 4, but the guidelines should apply to ALL videos for uniformity. Have fun discussing. :) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:26, 27 February 2008 (CST)

===How, exactly, to handle Tier 4 and 5 series pages===
I think this also should be discussed. Not only is the randomness of the current structure of pages a pet peeve of mine, but it makes no sense.
We've got pages that are the series's name a space and then the content name, we've got series name/content, and we've got content without any series name. I think, considering the more pages we add to the Pedia, the more likely we are to run into naming conflicts, we should put everything (perhaps not characters; that's what a discussion is for) as '''series name/content''', so you'd get stuff like The Flock/Minor Characters. Please discuss, and keep in mind that we've got several classifications of pages to consider:
*Main series pages (these clearly wouldn't need a content clarifier)
*Character pages
*Video pages (if they exist)
*Informational pages
*Actor pages This should only really apply to RE88, but I don't think these need series clarification

:The formal name is "subpages", although we should probably officially activate the subpages feature in the config to get those handy "<< Series name" links. That being said, this sounds like a very good solution to me - you could have LonelyJew15/Characters, LonelyJew15/Videos, LonelyJew15/OpAdolf and whatnot. We would, of course, need some redirects - LonelyJew15/Anne_Frank is not 100% intuitive.
:One thing that bothers me, though, is the "Tier 3" in the section title. As per the definition, Tier 3 pages only get one page. There are no additional pages to discuss. A simple page under "seriesname" is what it is.
:And an exception I'd make are actors...there's no use having a separate LonelyJew15/Jenni_Powell to the normal Jenni_Powell. Jenni Powell is Jenni Powell, Maya Kramer is Maya Kramer, and Amanda Goodfried is Amanda Goodfried. They are not specific to one series.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:03, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::Right you are. It's been so long since we started the revamp, I forgot the tiers. I changed-ed it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 19:05, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::Personally I don't like the subpage idea very much. Wikipedia {{wikipedia|WP:SP|doesn't allow subpages}} for "permanent content that is meant to be part of the encyclopedia" (Disallowed uses, number 3), and I think there's good reason. Here are a few I can think of for our case:
::::#Subpages are harder to link to. I don't know about you, but typing out '''<nowiki>[[LonelyJew15/Anne Frank|Anne Frank]]</nowiki>''' instead of just '''<nowiki>[[Anne Frank]]</nowiki>''' seems like a lot more work to me, especially when it must be done for ''every'' link to a page relating to a series.
::::#In many cases, there's no overlap of names. There's only one [[Anne Frank]], [[Rachel]], [[Maddison Atkins]], etc., and if a name ''did'' happen to overlap, we already have ways to deal with that (e.g. {{tl|one other use}}). In the cases where names would overlap (like "List of videos"), I don't see a problem with just using '''Redearth88 list of videos''' (for example), since it's as easy to type (and looks nicer imo) than '''Redearth88/List of videos'''.
::::#Some characters are in more than one series. For example, [[Tachyon]] is in both [[OpAphid]] and [[Redearth88]] (granted, she's named [[Aly Zarin]] in RE88 but it's still the same character). Also, I haven't been following RE88 and MA recently, but if it's true there's going to be (already has been?) overlap between the two, how do we decide how to categorize the characters? Heck, [[War Pylol]] right now is categorized in [[:Category:OpAphid characters]], Category:Maddison Atkins characters, and Category:Redearth characters. Of course, we could decide which series the character is ''most'' a part of, but then we run the risk of making it look like the character is ''only'' part of that series and not any others.
::::#It would make page names inconsistent and confusing. If someone's looking for the page on [[Bree]], they search for "Bree". If they're looking for [[Gregory Atkins]], they search for "Gregory Atkins", not "Maddison Atkins/Gregory Atkins". Of course, redirects are an option (as you say) but why have a redirect when you can just house the page there in the first place without any loss of understanding about what the page is about? And if we end up sticking with the namespace idea for both official series (see [[# Page/Category naming conventions|below]]), that will confuse things even more. 'Cause now I have to type '''LonelyJew15/List of videos''' for the LJ15 videos but '''LG:List of videos''' (or similar) for the LG15 videos. Seems counter-intuitive and confusing to new (and even ol...err, established) editors. Again, we could have redirects, but it'd be much better (imo) to just keep things consistent.
::::My proposal, then, is to use "SeriesName Pagename" for pages like "Characters" and "Videos" and to just use "Pagename" for everything else. (In fact, after thinking through all of this, I kind of still like that idea for the official series as well. Hmmm...) Other thoughts?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:16, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Dang you're persuasive, Jon. But then this brings up Redearth, which was what I was basing this off of. Should we rename all of the Redearth pages that currently use this structure (during the appropriate phase of the revamp, of course.) But should we come up with some standard for a naming convention when pages need to be moved because of conflict? I've seen (video), (character), (Redearth88), (RE88), and (RE88 character) tacked on to the end of pages floating around (I'm not sure all of them were RE88, but it serves as a good example). Standardizing would probably make this easier... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:56, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I agree that we need to standardize. My suggestion would be to avoid making the "tack-ons" series specific, but instead use (character), (video), etc. For example, [[Doctor (Redearth88)]] would be moved to '''Doctor (character)'''. However, in an instance where there would still be a conflict (both [[Jack]] and [[Jack (Secondary Character)]] are characters, for instance), then we would include the series, but not the "character" part of it. So, [[Jack]] would stay where it is and [[Jack (Secondary Character)]] would be moved to '''Jack (lonelygirl15)''', since watchyourjack isn't really lg15. If there was ''still'' overlap, then we'd use both (like "(KateModern character)"). For all of these cases, {{tl|one other use}} should probably be used, if not a disambiguation page. Thoughts?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:01, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

==Character Pages Discussion==
''Okay, so there's been some talk as to the condition of the character pages we have here on the Pedia. Just bring everyone up to speed, here's what's been said so far:''

:Zoey, I've been pondering this for some time and thought I may as well ask you about it. Why is it that we do an entire "story so far" on every main character page? Wouldn't it be easier to just highlight the big stuff under "background" and pay more attention to keeping up the [[The Story So Far...]]. I mean, it just seems like our character pages are going to be so huge that no one will read the entire thing when we could be using the really good parts of each character background to make a really awesome page for our story so far, plus it would be less work for each character page and more people would actually edit our story so far page instead of it being left for months without any work done to it. I hope that all makes sense as now I'm looking at it and seems quite long, anyway, it's not that big of deal, just thought I'd throw that out there. [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 19:20, 19 February 2008 (CST)

::I think you have a completely valid point. I've actually been pondering implimenting something to that effect for a long time. The only thing is, I couldn't figure out how to do up the characters' pages so that this would work. Do you have any ideas... maybe a mockup of a page idea so I (and others) can kind of get a better idea of what exactly you have in mind? I'd love to see it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 14:55, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

:OK, this is proving harder than I had thought it would be. It's difficult to decide what to do with it. Maybe we should start a discussion or something to get other people's input because I really do think it would be better to have the character pages be shorter, but I don't know where to start! By the way I'm not going to be able to do quite as much editing as I have been because people at work are getting suspicious. :( [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 19:07, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

So yeah -- thoughts, people? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:38, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, first I think we should get rid of any sections that are covered in other places (ie: Daniels relationship section and Jonas's fan activity section) and just put links to them at the bottom with the theory links. EDIT: I have made a fake Daniel page [[User:Nancypants/sandbox|here]] so if anyone has ideas please feel free to mess around and change things, it's just my sandbox. [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 20:36, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

:Now that I've had time to look over the proposed page, I must say, I like it! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:54, 12 April 2008 (CDT)

::I rather like the page too! I think it needs to be fleshed out in some parts (don't ask me where! if I could put my finger on it, I'd totally tell you! lol)... I just feel like it's a bit bare... but really... it's SO on the right track! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 11:03, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

== Written policies needed: Disputing edits & commenting etiquette ==

On [[LGPedia talk:Deletion Policy#Lesser Deletion Policy|two]] [[Talk:Recovered Memory#a + b = c|occasions]] in the past two weeks, the way we deal with disputed edits came into question. '''As such, I feel it is necessary to, once and for all, write an official policy on how to correctly oppose a revision, and how each side has to behave.''' This policy ''has'' to be signed and endorsed by the administration, in order to give it the necessary authority.

'''My POV:''' 
In my opinion, the commonly accepted, now disputed policy is the only practical and logical one: ''Do what the majority wants.'' 
The main question of the disputes was, whether to leave the disputed edit standing and have the disputing side argue why it should be reverted, or to revert to the original version and discuss the changes. In my opinion, it is obvious the latter has to be done, due to the following reasoning:

Let us first take a look at how an edit can commonly turn out:
#The edit is made, and nobody disputes it. This suggests the community agrees with the edit.
#The edit is made, and somebody reverts it.
##In the discussion following, the community agrees with the edit, and the change is reinstated.
##In the discussion following, the community disagrees with the edit, and the revert is upheld.

The important part for my reasoning is #1 - no dispute. A certain state of a page can only exist if nobody disputed it. Thus, by the very logic of the concept of community based editing, the original version of the page, the one that is being edited, is a version that was accepted as "usable", "okay" or "fitting" by the community in the past, up to the point until the disputed change was made. The original version can thus be assumed as a ''community accepted revision'', in the sense that the ''majority'' of the community saw no reason to change it, or at least saw no reason to propose the disputed change.

Now let us watch how a dispute would go under the different systems:
{|style="border: 1px solid #bbbbbb; background-color: #FAFAFA;"
!style="background: #B8D1EF;"|Common process
!style="background: #B8D1EF;"|Proposed process
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|-
|An edit is made
|An edit is made
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|red|Unverified Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|red|Unverified Revision}}''
|-
|The edit gets reverted
|Somebody disputes the edit on a talk page, explaining why it is not a valid contribution to the page, but is not allowed to revert.
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|red|Unverified Revision}}''
|-
|The editor disputes the revert on a talk page, outlining why his change should be committed, but is not allowed to revert.
|
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|red|Unverified Revision}}''
|-
|Discussion
|Discussion
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|red|Unverified Revision}}''
|-
|Decision of the majority - either commit the change, or leave as is.
|Decision of the majority - accept new revision, or revert.
|-
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|style="background: #EAEAEA;"|''Page status: {{color|green|Community Accepted Revision}}''
|}
At first, the processes seems very similar, and the proposed process, as QtheC put it, "encourages addition of content and pushes the discussion toward justifying removal, rather than justifying addition.". However, this does not take into account two very important facts:
#'''The revision status during discussion.''' As visible above, during the discussion in the common process, the page is always held on a community accepted revision, whereas, in the new process, the page stays on the disputed status. In other words, during the common process, the page stays in a revision that nobody in the community but the editor deems "wrong" in any way, while, in the new process, the page stays in a revision that the community has not verified yet, and, in fact, got disputed immediately after it was submitted.
#'''Valuing addition higher than removal.''' This is simply ''wrong''. There is no reason to assume that an addition is always better than a removal. Removing confusing, incorrect or otherwise irrelevant content can clear up and improve a page considerably, while adding only marginally related, badly formatted or phrased or even irrelevant content can confuse readers and significantly diminish a page's quality. What should be evaluated is the ''change'' itself, not whether the nature of the change was an addition or removal. LGPedia does ''not'' per se advocate addition of content. It advocates ''improvement'' of content. In most cases, this means addition, yes. But it can very well mean removal, and it is ludicrous to assume that an addition is by default better than a removal.
To return to the process:
*In the common process, the community accepted revision is upheld, the community discusses a change to the community accepted revision, and, by this discussion, creates a new community accepted revision - be it one that includes the proposed change, or one that expressedly excludes it.
*In the proposed process, the rogue user's unverified revision is upheld, and the community has to live with an actively disputed revision until it proves that it really, really doesn't like this change.
What does this mean practically?
#It is reasonable to assume that the community accepted revision has a certain standard: It has a certain level of visual appeal, the phrasing is alright, and so on. The unverified revision may have been disputed exactly because that is ''not'' the case. In the common process, the community accepted, regularly patrolled page stays out for everyone to see. In the proposed process, the potentially erroneous and typo-laden revision stays out for everyone to see.
#Significant changes could be forced upon the community. Take my proposed [[User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15|Portal:Lonelygirl15 redesign]], for example. Following the new process, I could simply install it and ''the entire rest of the community'' would have to justify reverting the change, instead of just reverting it and telling me "we did not approve this yet, kthx". Now, I like to think that my portal redesign is not all that bad, but remember that this policy is for everyone - by tomorrow, you could find yourself arguing about a horrible 1995-looking table-based layout that includes the entire plot of lonelygirl15 on the [[Main Page]]. And you couldn't just revert it. Policy would say you'd have to discuss the revert first.
#Think of the following question: What if the number of discussing people is rather small? In the common process, if people actually adhered to it instead of edit-waring their revision back in (the person I mean knows exactly who he his), the community accepted revision would be upheld even if there was only one "defender" against the editor. The editor would actively have to show the community backs his change before he could push it through. In the proposed process, one single editor is enough to force a significant change through, and now the "defender" has to go out and inform people the page has been violated and actually has to gather support just to ''return'' to a state that everybody backs.
#Lastly, it is simply a question of common courtesy and "burden of proof" type of thinking - if somebody wants to make a change to a page, that person should be ready to prove that his change is "right" or "makes sense". It should not be required for the majority of the community to go to the talk page and prove the editor wrong, just to get the page they already agreed to back. Community backing for a change should be secured ''before'' the change is made - not afterwards.

In the end, I can't help but think that the proposed process was proposed exactly ''because'' it allows to force rogue edits down the community's throat - because, one must not forget that the common process does not exist to stop changes - it just requires community backing to make them. In the discussions that spawned these proposals, that community backing was lacking. Several times, it was ''one person'' arguing for several days without support from others, but still trying to force their will upon the entire rest of the communtiy. It is obvious how these users would gain an advantage from the proposed process.

Let me reiterate this: If someone makes a disputed, reverted edit, and can provide a reasonable explanation for the change, the community ''will'' back him, and the majority ''will'' reinstate the change even if the "defender" is of differing opinion. '''If a change finds support by the majority, the common process does not stop it.''' It just requires the ''undisputed'' revision to stay while the discussion is running, and that the ''change'' is justified, not the ''already accepted'' revision.

Also note that, in 90% of all cases, consent is automatically given by the fact that nobody disputes an edit. The large majority of edits on LGPedia does not get disputed. No matter how this text sounds on first glance, the common process does ''not'' require every single change to be largely justified. It just requires changes to be justified should they get disputed.
----
Independent from this, I would like to have a policy on talk page threads, specifically outlining the following points:
*Indention
*Destruction of other user's posts
The former is something I regularly see in discussions - people seem to be entirely unaware of how to use indention to signify who they're replying to, regularly jumping back to the grandparent level without a note or connection to the grandparent post. This is not only annoying to read, but also destroys the flow of discussion, and thus confuses readers.

The latter is something platy does, in particular, and something I consider highly inappropriate: Placing replies to sub-points of a comment directly ''inside'' of the original comment. 
If I have written a post, that is ''my'' post, and nobody has the right to change it except with my consent. It forms a union. Had I wanted to break it up and intermit it with comments, I'd have done that when I wrote it. 
We have a quote template. Especially I myself have demonstrated in the past how to use it to reply to select subpoints of previous posts. As such, ''there is no justification to alter someone else's post without consent''. 
I would like the talk page rules to specifically state that replies are to be made in a new, separate, independent post, without modifying the original post.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:26, 4 April 2008 (CDT)
P.S.: I am aware that I have followed platy's style in the recent discussion(s) - as you can see, I pointed out how impolite and inappropriate his behavior was multiple times, but he didn't listen. I had no other choice but to follow him in order to stay in the discussion, and since my posts had already been violated, it didn't make much difference. Still, I am very displeased with this behavior. My posts are mine and the only people who should be allowed to edit it without my consent are administrators.

:The first point I'd like to make is that things here are and always have been decided by consensus. And while this ''can'' mean majority vote, it should more often be a comprise reached among all the parties involved. For example, instead of viewing an issue such as including a note as a debate between inclusion and exclusion, the discussion really should focus on what aspects of the note are worth including and what aspects are not. If it's the case that no part of the note should be kept, then so be it, but the focus should be '''cooperation toward a common goal'''. If this mindset is adopted, ideally discussions will look more like collaboration than debates. That's not to say there won't be disagreement (obviously in most cases that's why the discussion is taking place), but the driving force behind the discussion should be the desired result, not showing how the other person is wrong. Also, remember to {{wikipedia|WP:FAITH|assume good faith}} when it comes to other editors. Despite what it may seem, there is usually some reasoning behind every edit, so try to find the positive side of someone's contribution and build off of that.
:Secondly, I understand the point about wanting to encourage additions, so I'd like to add my own thoughts about that. As I said above, the goal is to reach a compromise, or a final result that everyone involved is happy with. So, instead of simply removing the edit in question, try ''improving'' it instead. This way, the original editor doesn't feel like their edit was worthless, but the disputer also has the opportunity to fix what they believe is wrong about the change. Again, this doesn't always work, as some additions need to just be completely removed, but it's something to keep in mind.
:In response to the main point of Renegade's post, I completely agree that we need a written policy on this, as this issue has been coming up a lot recently, and the lack of an official policy has made people question what exactly should be done. I have to say that I agree that the edit should stay off the page during the discussion, mainly for the reasons Renegade outlined. If the disputer does not completely revert the edit, but only modifies it, then obviously that new version can stay on the page while the discussion is happening. If, however, an edit war starts between two different versions of an edit (and this has happened before), the original, non-disputed one will be restored until a consensus can be reached on the talk page. Just to clarify, this applies only when the edits are simply going back and forth between versions, rather than gradually improving into a better version. The idea is to prevent senseless edit wars, not to hinder improvement. And just to reiterate, the vast majority of edits do not get disputed, so we're not saying that every edit must be explicitly accepted by the community. If no one contests it, that can be read as implicit consent and we can all go about our lives.
:Finally, concerning the talk page guidelines, that sounds like a good idea. Really, it's just common etiquette, but it's also something people may not be aware of right away. So if we do have such a policy, I think it's necessary to be lenient on newcomers who may not be aware of it, and just issue a friendly warning on the talk page, for example. If it becomes an issue to the extent that someone repeatedly refuses to follow the guidelines, actions would have to be taken, but hopefully we never get to that point.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 01:03, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
::I'm with Jon. It's nice to point out that, in most cases, a revert in order to dispute an addition is ''not'' the best solution. We've been pretty good about making improvements to ambiguous or questionable language when prudent, and adding something about that into the policy might not be a bad idea. The proposed solution would be only when ''it is believed'' that an improvement upon an edit cannot be created and/or the edit should never have been made in the first place.
::I also think we should make a move to limit the people with the ability to use that happy "revert" button to only do so when the edit made is clearly in violation with pre-established guidelines. That'll probably make a lot of people happier. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:24, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
:::I haven't had a chance to read this in its entirety yet, but I just wanted to point out that the only people with the rollback button are admins and spam-patrollers --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 10:53, 21 April 2008 (CDT).

::::After 17 days, that is all you have to say about this?
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:39, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

::::Sooooo....an entire month has passed and the administration unanimously decided to be indecisive and ignore the issue. And yet you complain when there are edit wars. Hypocrites.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 03:37, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

== Auto-generating EpHeader inside the Blog template ==
I will be the first to admit, this is random. But, at least in my mind, it might actually be a good idea. The [[Template:Blog|Blog template]] can detect whether an episode number is actually a number, and based on that, generate the Epcode or KMEpcode template accordingly. Going along the same principle, why can't we use the same test to auto-generate {{tl|EpHeader}} with the blog template? I, for one, would absolutely ''love'' not having to make sure the episode numbers match between the blog template and the epheader template, as having them NOT match happens probably more than it should. 
Obviously we would have the epheader template pull the blog name, as well, so we could have the special characters when needed.

What does everyone else think? I know LGBot and EvilRenegade might hate the suggestion, considering the work they'd have to do... :p

'''Summary for people who are confused about what I just said:'''
We currently have to do (essentially) {{tl|Blog}}{{tl|EpHeader}} on each episode page. I'm suggesting making it so that you'd only have to do {{tl|Blog}} on an episode page. All with no added user-side parameters! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 19:05, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

:The current setup is as it is because, in the past, custom intro-paragraphs for episodes were not uncommon. We couldn't check how the headers of each episode looked like, so we just made LGBot add it everywhere so we could move around or remove the template where necessary.
:I believe for KM I included EpHeader from the start, for this exact reason.
:So while I agree it might be easier, all 450+ episodes would have to be checked to be sure it worked.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:50, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

::From what I can see (I only checked out about 50 blogs. I've edited more than that recently to get a pretty good sample size), all of the videos that this would apply to are currently using the EpHeader template. (Well, plus some additional verbage, but that would stay intact. So I can't see a problem. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:57, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

'''Yep. Jon and I got this worked out last night. Discussion closed. :p''' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 07:37, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

==Puzzle Revamp==
::''For a more detailed explanation, see [[Talk:Lonelygirl15 puzzles#The Puzzle "Revamp"]]''
I know several people are going to kill me for doing this, but I'm proposing that another "revamp" take place. Please note, it is on a much smaller scale than the one taking place, and is only in reference to puzzles in [[Lonelygirl15]] (including [[OpAphid]] and [[Jumper]]) and [[KateModern]] and how they are organized and represented on the pedia. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 18:54, 19 April 2008 (EST)

:::For one, afaik, Jumper is not canon. At least we made very sure to limit its display on LGPedia. And for two, the only thing I constantly thought during reading both pages was "wtf?".
:::Why do you want this? What purpose does it serve? Why forcefully limit the amount of space a puzzle can have?
:::For one, UGC puzzles fall under the general UGC Tier system. If you're not Tier 4 or higher, you can't even make a separate puzzle page anyway. So the only puzzles we're really talking about are OpAphid, LG15 and similar ones.
:::And these are finite.
:::The UGC revamp had to happen because any series keeps growing and growing and growing, and if a series is featured, it sucks when the pages are not up to date, and if a series is not all that notable, it sucks when it takes up more and more space. This does not apply to puzzles. Puzzles are over when they're over, and there are only two possibilities - either you covered them completely with both puzzle and solution, or you didn't. They don't grow after complete coverage. As such, there is no need to limit their expansion.

:::Series that are not notable do not get to create puzzle pages in the first place. Series that do get to create puzzle pages cannot expand them beyond "everything". Either a puzzle is covered completely, or it is not. There is no middle ground. If puzzles are so small they can be grouped on a single page, but aren't, this can be fixed as part of the normal pedia procedure, without a grand revamp.
:::As such, I, personally, think this revamp is unnecessary and unrealistic.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:18, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
From what I understand, the proposition only affects series that would already merit puzzle pages? Is this correct? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 10:50, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
:That is correct. This only affects puzzles for Lonelygirl15, KateModern, and OpAphid. (Jumper falls into a gray area, so I'm not exactly sure what to label it). Renegade is correct in that UGC series follow the guildlines set up by the revamp (i.e. Redearth88, Maddison Atkins. The Coalition, etc. are not part of the discussion. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 11:56 21 April 2008 (EST)
::EDIT: I just read Renegade's message again. The problem is that some puzzles are small enough to be lumped together in one page, and some have more info. This is evident simply by viewing the [[Lonelygirl15 puzzles]] page. I admit, "Revamp" is probably the wrong word to use. Analysis maybe? Whatever the word, it looks strange if some puzzles are together on one page, while others have their own page (and if we grant each their own page, some puzzles have barely enough info to merit one. Should there be some index where one can access all the puzzles easily without searching through categories, or what? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:33, 21 April 2008 (EST)

:::But that is exactly my point - either the puzzle description is complete, or not. Some are big enough to need entire pages, some are tiny and can live with a few lines. You cannot just cut down a puzzle description that's a page long - you'll either miss the puzzle, or the solution.
:::And, like I said before, if any of the standalone puzzles don't merit their own pages, they can be put on the collective puzzle page as part of normal pedia operation - no need for a larger project.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:39, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

== Lowercase letters starting titles of pages ==

I am a bit confused on this. Why can't a lowercase letter begin the title of a page? I know, technical restrictions, but Wikipedia apparently can do that... Just a thought. [[User:SilverBULLETx3|SilverBULLETx3]] 12:22, 3 August 2008 (CDT)

:Long story short, Wikipedia uses a plugin that isn't installed on the LG15 version of the MediaWiki. That's not to say it couldn't be, only that it isn't currently. There was another work-around Wikipedia had at one point, but IIRC, it was some crazy javascript that only worked part of the time. Plus, if you'll notice, all of Wikipedia's pages are still upper-case only, they just have a template that allows the title of the page to appear lowercase. At that point, I think you're more arguing semantics. (Our current blog template will show the title in the text of the page correctly, regardless of formatting.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 00:11, 12 August 2008 (CDT)

=Alternative to revamp proposal=
Seeing as the revamp seems to have fallen through, I'd like to make a proposition. Instead of a tier system, we have the consensus system. Basically, every '''series''' has the opportunity to have a comprehensive single page on the lgpedia. If someone believes that more pages are merited, they can propose it on the article's talk page. However, if the consensus allows for the expansion to occur, there has to be a user (or users) willing to take responsibility for their upkeep. Please keep in mind that this is just a proposal, and some details still have to be hashed out. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13 August 208 (EST)

::You might want to take this discussion over to Lucy's Balcony so that this page can focus on the actual series that need work on their pages.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:30, 13 August 2008 (CDT)

=Change the Editing Warning Message=
When editing on the LGPedia, the current message reads:

"Please note that all contributions to LGPedia may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here.
You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource (see [[LGPedia:Copyrights|Project:Copyrights]] for details). '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!'''"

I propose we replace this message with this improved version, with a less threatening, more respectful and more welcoming tone:

"Please note that all contributions to LGPedia may be edited by other users in a collaborative fashion. By adding content, you are asserting that it is your own work, that you have permission and have acknowledged the work of others by giving credit, or that it has been copied from a public domain or similar free resource (see [[LGPedia:Copyrights|Project:Copyrights]] for details). '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!'''"

Talk:List of UGC series not covered on LGPedia

2008-08-29T19:54:15Z

QtheC:

This guidance (beginning with "for organizational reasons") has been removed since the proposed procedure described on the [[LGPedia:UGC desk]] was not adopted:

''"This page lists all user generated, LG15 or KM-related series that are currently not covered on LGPedia for organizational reasons. Please be aware that usually, new series are given a certain grace period within which they ''are'' being covered until an assessment is possible. If a page ends up here, there was likely a reason and a discussion about it. If you think one of these series should be covered on LGPedia, do '''not''' simply go forward and create pages for them. Research the argumentation of the previous evaluation first, and if you feel it does not apply anymore, go to [[LGPedia:UGC desk]] and file a request for re-evaluation as outlined on that page."'' ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 14:54, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

May I start adding links and descriptions here for Tier 1 series? Would that be helpful? --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 15:31, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:It would be immensely helpful. Feel free to add what you can. I left the links as a separate column so you can add multiple links for a series, for example to multiple YouTube accounts or to forum threads.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:24, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:::I am slogging thru them. Shiori has added links to the all the series now, so I'll work on descriptions. This page by itself is going to be a valuable resource, I suppose (and probably more valuable than the original scattered unorganized pages for each of these series), because many of these series are quite obscure, with many videos seen by less than 200 people in some cases. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 10:15, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
::::I'm planning on taking off the New Girls once the first phase is over (when we're implementing the page that's currently in the Sandbox). They're not being removed, only their separate series pages are. FH and I decided compounding the series information onto the New Girls page wouldn't be a bad idea. So, to make my incessant babbling coherent, you don't have to worry (at least not too much) about summaries for them. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:39, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::After doing just rejected92, I have to agree it makes sense to cover the New Girls on their own page instead of here. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 13:57, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

== Scdgoofy ==

I would propose removing [[Scdgoofy]] from the list, as he didn't create a "series" of videos at all. He posted three videos, two from the site of "In the Park", and one from the site of the the doctor's office Bree's visited. Scdgoofy is independently noteworthy for discovering the lonelygirl15 trademark that was a substantial factor in the discovery of the Creators, but I don't think he needs to be listed here as a UGC series. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 10:18, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

:k, removing.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:44, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

== Cassieressurection ==

Perhaps I missed a prior discussion on this, but I don't see why Cassieressurection shouldn't just be included on the Tier 2 Cassie UGC page, and deleted from this page. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 14:21, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

:Heh, it was more of a technical reason. Most of the Cassie series did not have their own page, so in her original suggestion, Zoey just put them all together as Cassie UGC. Exactly ''because'' Cassieresurrection should be on that same page, she listed its page as Tier 1, to have it deleted. I'll take it off.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:44, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

LGPedia talk:UGC desk

2008-08-29T19:48:48Z

QtheC:

This process described on this page is a misguided bureaucratic pain in the ass and should be entirely rejected by the community of UGC creators and fans who want a free/open and yes, sometimes messy/creative LGPedia where we can share information about these series without a lot of hassle, endless argument, editing, and general interference by a few control freaks, who unfortunately, seem to have put down roots here.

I am nominating this page for deletion. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:47, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

:::I think we should just move forward positively and try and find a way to meet the original needs of community video on LGPedia. Back in the day many series created multiple pages including character pages and video transcripts. That in itself is not a problem but the dynamic created by it led to friction. As time went bye some series failed to keep their multiple pedia pages up to date. That left the pedia feeling incomplete and some felt obligated or pressured in to trying to maintain the pedia at a "professional level". Some will say this pressure was self imposed. Others will say the feeling that the pedia should be complete is totally normal and the feeling of obligation was perfectly valid. It really just depends on your outlook. However this dynamic was set in motion and it was causing a great deal of stress because the burden of completing the pages fell on very few and it was growing rapidly over time. I do not think that anyone should question a community video that wants to create a page on LGPedia an that series should be left free to develop that page over time. We have even suggested a very basic template that could be used as a voluntary guide for a new page [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Talk:Community_Video_Series#Suggested_Template].

:::Now where we have a larger problem is when a series creates multiple pages because we have widely different philosophical views on how that should be handled. At one extreme we have the "open philosophy" which would say just let the LGPedia grow freely and organically and let users just have fun. At the other extreme we have the "rules philosophy" who think that the pedia needs clear rules on how to handle things. In the middle we have "voluntary" and "guidelines" philosophies. These are intrinsically different and it could very well be impossible to get everyone on the same page because of that. Even a consensus approach fails because then the majority are infringing on the freedom of the individual and since this is supposed to be entertainment that does have a negative or dampening impact on community video.

:::There are no easy answers here but I hope that helps outline how we got to this point. I would like to see us try and move forward as one friendly community that respects each others different points of view. We need to be positive and constructive and focus on the goal while understanding that each of us has our own view on how community videos should be handled on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 14:15, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

::::Thanks Modelmotion, for a very balanced and understanding view of the whole picture. I saw this page and reacted strongly against it. Since then, I have noticed there was already a movement to delete the "Revamp" page on [[LGPedia talk:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp]], and that this "UGC Desk" Page has been idle since it was proposed in March. I ended up here because I was looking at the lists of UGC series on the LGPedia and followed a link from the [[List of UGC series not covered on LGPedia]] which needs an update. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 14:48, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

LGPedia talk:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-08-29T19:33:56Z

QtheC: In favor of deleting the "revamp"

I'd like to lend my modest voice to the deletion of this dead project.[[User:ApotheosisAZ|Apo]] 01:53, 6 August 2008 (CDT)
::Agreed. This project and it's pages should be held to the same standards it was trying to impose.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:18, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

As I stated in the Deletion tag, I think the same logic with regards to fanfiction/user generated content that was so greatly discussed be applied here. It seems its chief architect abandoned the project, like many creators of content, leaving a rotting corpse. But unlike fanfiction which ADDED to the Pedia. This whole discussion has resulted in nothing but wasted time..and effort that could have gone into creating a much richer and broader reference material for this EXTENDED community of which we are all a part. Having been here from the EARLY days..I can tell you..this was intended to be about INCLUSIVITY and not Exclusivity. This whole project has done nothing to foster greater belonging..and it has done EVERYTHING it suggested that User Generated content did..Clutter the pedia..with half completed projects..spread out over multiple pages...a sprawl that almost no fanfiction could compete with. It also has resulted in the VERY unsightly creation of many tags and notes at the top of the pages...that pervade the Pedia..and encourage new editors to NOT post..because their work very well may be discard. So... Do I have any seconds? Seems I was seconded before I finished...
--[[User:LordGreystoke422|LordGreystoke422]] 01:59, 6 August 2008 (CDT)
::If we spend more time discussing and defending how to organize content than producing quality content it seems counter productive. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:02, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

Destruction of history is one of the greatest sins of mankind. Remember the library of Alexandria that was burned to ashes? Can we not learn from our mistakes and leave well enough alone? Why do we have to fit everything into a neat little tiny box? [[User:GregGallows|GregGallows]]

Well, I'd tend to agree with the deletion of documents, it must be noted that some information has been lost already. Barring that though, it must be noted that LG15 (and all attached blogs, fanfics, wikis and more) is a community. A community that brings together all sorts of people from around the web. People were welcomed to creatively add to the expanding Breeniverse as they please. As every author, actor and videographer is equal so is every work of fiction.

This teir system, along with being an article that could do with some cleaning up, creates an exclusive enviroment that is contrary to that of the original intent of the Lonelygirl15 community.

Taking into consideration Greg's comment, though, I suggest that this article be rendered obsolete and clearly noted as such so that there be no confusion and so that the inclusive, community enviroment be maintained and no one feel ostersized by their works, which are all creatively equal.

--[[User:Zudit|Zudit]] 03:32, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

CdnMatt: As far as complete removal of documents, I believe that all works created (weather current or historical) should remain contained within the Fan-Fiction Portal page. Credit should be given openly as the user can judge to view or not view the link.

Portal Page:
This document could contain much of the information that is discussed previously (including links to the fan-fic site, main characters, banner identification, name, overview, and #vids). The Portal should be set up as a grid-system to initially contain the name of the Fan-Fic and below the name - the banner or hyperlink to their respective site. The next section could contain a brief overview that is somewhat similar to the site's main-page overview.

The main purpose of this project would be to allow ease of access to fan-fiction pages and allow viewers to judge their preference for the series and/or return back to the portal to continue access to other series-sites. By doing this - we negate any need for a tier-system and eliminate any back-lash from the hard-work that people put in towards producing their series.

CdnMatt --[[User: CdnMatt|CdnMatt]] 05:08, 6 August 2008 (EST)

I'd also like to nominate this page for deletion as I agree with all the points brought up in favor of it thus far. --[[User:JenniPowell|JenniPowell]] 08:35, 6 August 2008 (EST)

I agree this process and the deletion of so much fan created content, however messy, is not desirable. Let's reduce the bureacracy, and increase the fun for the fan contributed portions of the LGPedia. And let's respect historical contributions and effort that went into producing them. I support deleting the "revamp" but perhaps we should keep a copy somewhere as an example of what not to do. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 14:33, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

== What to do now ==

Hey everyone, thanks for posting. It's nice to see so many names on one page; it seems like we don't have useful discussions around here as much as we used to. It is of course true that this revamp has not gone anywhere for months, and I think one reason for that is that it is rather complicated. For example, the [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]] as they are outlined would require a fair amount of work to keep up with and enforce, and I for one do not have the time nor would I want to devote the time to doing that.

On the other hand, what we have now doesn't work either. Pages and series get neglected, and it makes LGPedia look incomplete and messy. That was the whole reason the revamp was started in the first place. So we can't just throw it out and go back to how things were. The goal is organization and presentability, not exclusion.

If the tier system is unpopular, what do people think would work better? Ideally, we'd have a system that's not complicated, but keeps the pedia looking acceptable and also gives fan series the opportunity for a presence if they want one. Any suggestions?

(I see no reason to delete this page now, as it can provide some insight into what we should do. I'm sure some of the same issues will come up.)--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 03:21, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

::I think one key is to allow people to start a single page for a new series without the "deletion tag" being thrown on there in a matter of days. We need to be more sensitive to the needs of the community and the impact such tags have on morale. Someone might also create a simple "recommended" template that could be posted on the talk page of any new series page created. That would provide a rough suggested format for a page and suggested guidelines that could be followed on a voluntary basis. I do not think we need to rehash the old discussion. This is more about keeping the pedia as friendly and open to new users, new formats and new ideas as possible while still recognising the administrative needs of the pedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 06:55, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

::::::I totally concur with what ModelMotion said. He and I have very similar perspectives on the Pedia. We believe in inclusivity over exclusivity. We also both left the Pedia for a lot of the same reasons. The ultimate solution to the problem is more editors. Obviously, that's easier said than done but I am going to reveal how to slowly swell the ranks of the editors. Don't run them off and don't discourage them before they get started. More on this later...but back to the main topic. I understand the concern about keeping the Pedia looking neat... However most concerned with this are looking at it from the paradigm of the all knowing Admin/serious editor. The average schlep coming into LGpedia doesn't click the recent changes tab. They don't scan the overall page list or have a page they are watching. The average schlep just wants to look something up. IF they come here and find a bunch of pages with deletion tags on them, they certainly do not feel very empowered to write about something. They just turn around and leave. Deletion tags are EXCLUSIVE. Also..let's look at what this need for neatness has led to. Look at the User Generated content pages. There is a little sticky or a deletion tag at the top of all of them...NOW that is NOT clean and neat. It looks awful. Also as I pointed out in the nomination this process became EVERYTHING it was intended to attempt to address. Its a BIG ugly looking mess that is a dead end..and created more work than maintaining the pages in question could EVER have done. When I first came back and started looking around the Pedia, I saw the state of how User Generated Content was being handled and my dog ended up hiding under the bench. For one...I COULDN'T find it. Its been shoved so far into the closet I had to look under the golf clubs, the bowling ball, 3 empty shoe boxes, "AHhhh there it is." Now to someone like Jon that has been here the whole time, where it is, is more than obvious. To a Noob or a retread like me, its hidden. Now what are the solutions...INCLUSIVITY. IF an article is short and incomplete... Don't stick a deletion tag on it..Use the STUB. The Stub encourages someone else to work on it. While it MIGHT look bad, think of it as the worm on the hook. It's bait for new editors. Someone comes across an article..sees the stub tag and says..I can add to this..and jumps in. It could be a fairly inconsequential article..it doesn't matter...someone was motivated to write it so someone may be motivated to finish it. Think of stub tags as bait and deletion tags as repellent for new editors. Which would you rather have all over the place? One that may motivate someone or one that reduces their morale before it even gets started? I think everything needs to be looked at from the paradigm of "Does this ADD information to the Pedia and does it add to the community or does this take away information from the Pedia and detract from the community ". I think this tier system OBVIOUSLY took away from the community. It created a Caste system which most people didnt want to deal with. Folks don't want the drama of having to discuss and justify EVERY single thing they do. Most people avoided this discussion because they didn't want to be false logiced and Flow chart syllogismed to death. I have yet to speak to someone that thinks these tiers are a good idea...its obvious they aren't. It creates a bureaucracy where one was not needed. Bureaucracies are inherently inefficient as they add unneeded steps to a process. The effort and work put into the creation and discussion of this one could have been funneled elsewhere. I think this whole thing needs to be archived in some DEEP dark corner so we can peek in and be reminded of just what the bloat of government can cause. Wiki is intended to be an organic process..one that grows and changes over time. That leads to more information and more contributors over time. Adding too many rules just bogs down the creative process and discourages others from joining. People dont want to learn a car load of rules..and have overly dramatic discussions about pretty trivial stuff...they will just go watch a few bad videos instead. Now let me give a few examples of some things. There was a creator named [[Maccaboy17]] that jumped on with videos that referenced mine and took things his own way..for 3 videos. Being the inclusionist that I am, I added a page for him. Suddenly, his videos stopped and he even closed his accounts. Now pay attention to the discussion on his page and the histories. I left not that long after this..but this was a case where...deleting the page should have been easy..and others had seen it..but instead of simply DOING it..it led to this whole major discussion that...did more harm than it could ever do good. For now, we should delete no articles as I have a plan working with Model to handle it..but more on that later. Another important point I want to make out is...most people are not going to find all these partial articles...it really only looks bad to the admin...and then..only if you look at it. You might say...but we DO look at it..and I suggest..there are a lot of other places you can look instead. We all know you guys have 6 gajillion projects and you work rather hard...this is not an implication you are slackers...but..look how the Welcome page was neglected before I started to alter it. It has a button on the left that shows on EVERY page cause its always there on the left right under community. So I think we can admit..its fairly prominent. Yet it had information on there about KateModern that had not been updated since the show started... Now THAT looks bad. Its a basic ENTRY page..and yet its not maintained. Also...I really think Lucy's balcony shouldnt be over there. YES it makes it easy for the regulars to get to...but it makes it easy for the noobs too...and with discussions like the UGC revamp..its gonna make people in to Sir Robyn of Monty Python's Holy Grail fame...and they will run away..bravely run away away...but I digress...sorta...but not really...the order of the day should be to ENCOURAGE and not DISCOURAGE. Ultimately, my point is..if a page as prominent and important as the welcome page can be over looked for so long...do we really need to worry about partial pedia pages for a series? It may be a partial page..and someone is bored and comes along...finds a new series to watch..and then decides they want to spruce the page up. We just need to remember..this can take LONG periods of time...we don't have millions of people using this pedia every day so it takes longer for things to happen. Those of you working every day so diligently in the trenches here notice the dead bodies...but when the bullets are still flying over head...the reinforcements aren't that worried about it...they would rather attend to the wounded..and move the battle forward while not getting shot their self Now just like a battle...the dead bodies NEED to be attended to..its just not a priority. Ultimately if the creators are allowed to create and the organizers allowed to organize we can all get somewhere on this dead horse...but if instead we discuss it...like we are now...and it goes on forever and restricts people..it will get no where. So lets not talk to much..let's act.. Model, ,myself and some others have some plans where we intend to more prominently expose the Community Content. Hopefully this will get a few people at least exposed to some things they havent seen before..and maybe encourage some of those that have been run off to come back and help.
--[[User:LordGreystoke422|LordGreystoke422]] 10:38, 7 August 2008 (CDT)
::I'm still calling for deletion, but if that isn't acceptable, fine. I think there should be a policy that makes things easy for all contributors, both editors and fan fic contributors alike. I don't think there is going to be any system that both will be completely happy with. Also, Jonpro stating that things can't go back to the way they were before seems to be final. My suggestion then is to reverse this way of thinking and just do exactly that. Fan fic pages are never going to be as easily categorized as the lonelygirl15 pages. They are sometimes going to be a little messy. Nominating them for deletion is exclusive.[[User:ApotheosisAZ|Apo]] 16:30, 7 August 2008 (CDT)
::: I created a [[Community Video Series]] index page the other night to try and make it easier to find the community video series. It still needs work but it is a start. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:22, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

:::: while this monster is being rehashed again, i might make a minor suggestion that we agree on some convention so that all community series / fan fic pages are clearly marked as fan fiction, to avoid confusion among casual readers about what's canon and what is not. maybe a page color or some marker at the top of each page (vs. the bottom category listing alone). i think the admins have reasonable concerns about neglected shitty looking sections of the pedia, and the fan fiction supporters have reasonable concerns about preserving the historical record of lg15 fanfiction. one huge thing that has changed since the tier system was developed, and which was not contemplated at the time, is that lg15 is over. (the new show is something different, frankly.) this gives us a chance to decide how to preserve what exists, and less of a concern about the maintenance problems which were very real when the tiers were created. i think the idea of an overarching hierarchy based on "importance" was too ambitious and unworkable in hindsight. i agree to assist in any plan to spruce up what is out there now, hopefully some consensus can be reached based on changed circumstances. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:59, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
:::::sample: [[Image:Lg15communityvid.JPG]] --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 10:08, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

:::::Personally, I've always been partial Ren's initial idea of letting a page sit for a few months before deciding what to do with it. I think the ''best'' way to go about things would be to allow an initial grace period of x weeks for a new series page (although we should attempt to cap additional branching pages) before judging on its importance or not. I recommended something similar for the [[Theloneliesttraveler]] page that popped up lately. Leaving things up to the community just seems better overall.
:::::As for current pages, I think we should just go through them in a mad sweep sometime soon and discuss how, exactly, things should be cleaned up. Institute sandbox pages that were agreed upon, maybe delete some of the more minor series that are taking up space (I'm thinking of the New Girl stuff in particular, here). And, most importantly, ''once a series has ended'', it's free reign to reorganize the pages however the community sees fit. Honestly, that should probably be the mindset for all pages, but I'm not sure everyone can be happy with that.
:::::Also, I like your idea of sectioning off non-canon stuff, Milo, but I don't think it's feasible. You and I both know how many pages are out there right now. I've been trying to work the reverse and flagging down canon material, but even that's a tad ridiculous. Right now the easiest thing to do is keep non-canon pages from being linked by canon material without some sort of disclaimer.
:::::P.S. What are we going to do with the Spin Offs page? We have, like, 5 similar pages now, and as far as I know that's the most comprehensive in terms of one-off-videos. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:57, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
:: it can take many months to establish a good series.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 06:39, 12 August 2008 (CDT)

Talk:Assignment 1--October 9, 2006

2008-08-29T18:54:17Z

QtheC: merge rather than delete where possible

If there is a way to merge this (and similar) content with the rest of the series info, that would be better. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:54, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

LGPedia:UGC desk

2008-08-29T18:52:09Z

QtheC: page nominated for deletion

{{delete|This page has been marked for deletion by QtheC.}}

{{Message|image=Crystal clear alert.png|title=Attention!|message=This page is part of the [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|LGPedia Fanfic Revamp]] and is not finalized or "live" until this notice has been removed. Please do not edit it.}}
Welcome to the User Generated Content desk on LGPedia. As part of the grand [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp]], instead of regulating which series gets the most pages by pure manpower, user generated series are now evaluated by the community.

The reason for this is that, in the past, user generated series (UGS) would often create many pages soon after their inception, but not maintain them afterwards, or tag them for deletion once the series shut down, leaving the burden of maintenance to other users. 
In the new system, after a one month grace period, the community as a whole decides whether a user generated series is notable enough to be listed permanently on LGPedia, or if it [[List of UGC series not covered on LGPedia|should not be covered]]. The extent of coverage is illustrated and described by assigning a '''Tier'''.

==Tiers==
<div style="float:right;">__TOC__</div><onlyinclude>
{|
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 UGS are not notable enough to be covered permanently on LGPedia. '''All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category.''' See [[#Notable non-series UGC|Notable non-series UGC]] for those.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 UGS are presented on a single page with basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 UGS are presented on a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 UGS are series that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. There is a wide range of possible reasons for ending up in this Tier, including appearance of Creators or canon actors in the series, pure size reasons or specific agreements with the community or administration. Tier 4 series are ''not'' Tier 5 series, and, as such, the number of pages created is limited to a few community-agreed ones.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 UGS are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. Due to their size and the generated user interest, these series have an array of pages similar to canon series, including templates, separate episode and character pages and categories.
|}</onlyinclude>

The current Tier for all UGS covered on LGPedia can be looked up on the [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List|UGC Tier List]].

==Re-evalution==
After each evaluation, including the initial one, UGS pages should be converted to a proper format for their Tier as soon as possible. Since series grow and events happen, a series may - of course - over time change to a degree that makes a different Tier seem more appropriate. In such cases, a ''Tier re-evaluation'' can be requested.

===How to request a re-evaluation of a series===
Please make sure the following conditions are true before you request a re-evaluation:
*The series has spent at least '''one month''' in its current Tier.
*You have read and understood the discussion that lead to its current Tier.
*You believe the leading argument or multiple supporting arguments are not true anymore ''and'' you can support this belief through factual evidence, ''or'' you can add new supportive facts to the discussion.

Re-evaluations do expressedly ''not'' always have to be promotions. Demotions are entirely possible under the very same conditions. However, should a series get moved in one direction in one month, and moved back to its original place in the next month, the "spent time" condition for that series is automatically extended to '''two months''' in order to allow a closer look if the current Tier is truly adequate or not.

Should a series be eligible for re-evaluation and you would like to request one, proceed as follows:
#Go to '''LGPedia:UGC desk/evaluations/SERIES NAME/MONTH_YEAR'''. Should this be the first evaluation, put "initial" instead of month and year. If you wanted to evaluate Lonelygirl15 today, you'd go to <tt>LGPedia:UGC_desk/evaluations/Lonelygirl15/{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}_{{CURRENTYEAR}}</tt> If you wanted to evaluate KateModern for the first time, you'd go to <tt>LGPedia:UGC_desk/evaluations/KateModern/initial</tt>
#If that page exists, join the already running discussion. Do ''not'' restart an ended discussion unless a major point was not taken into account. Either way, stop following these steps.
#Should the page not exist, create it following the template posted [[#Template|below]].
#Add the discussion to the list on [[LGPedia:UGC_desk/evaluations]].
#Tag either the series's page or main page/portal with [[Template:Evaluation]], using the parameter to link to your discussion.
#Add the discussion to [[LGPedia:Participate]] with the name "Evaluation of SERIES NAME"
#See [[#After the request|After the request]] for how things will proceed after you requested an evaluation.

'''Please note:''' Requests not added to the publications lists are automatically ''invalid'' since no one would know they exist.

===Template===
<pre>{|cellpadding="3"
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Series:
|ADD SERIES NAME HERE
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Current Tier:
|ADD CURRENT TIER HERE
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Date:
|ADD REQUEST DATE HERE
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Posted by user:
|ADD YOUR NAME HERE
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Reason for re-evaluation:
|ADD YOUR REASONING HERE
|}
----</pre>

'''Could look like this, for example:'''
{|cellpadding="3"
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Series:
|[[Main Page|The Example Alliance]]
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Current Tier:
|2
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Date:
|{{Date}}
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;"|Posted by user:
|[[User:Renegade|FooBarMan]]
|-
|style="font-weight: bold; text-align: right;" valign="top"|Reason for re-evaluation:
|The Example Alliance has rapidly expanded within the past two months, releasing a total of 30 new videos, having three character chats and even held a live event attended by [[Alexandra Dreyfus]]. The informational volume alone would bloat the page to Tier 3-like sizes, and if we bumped them up to Tier 4, we could even create a separate video list, a page for the live event and a list of videos. I think Tier 4 would be justified because [[Yousef Abu-Taleb]] was in [[lonelygirl362436]], and that is Tier 4 because of it.
|}
----
Please make sure you state your reasons calmly and rationally, and provide objective data to support your request. In this example, for example, the user could link to forum threads detailing the event and chats, and to the YouTube video list of their main account.

===After the request===
After a request has been posted, users will find it through the participation block on Recent changes or through the list of running evaluations below. Hopefully, they will then join the discussion, replying just as calmly and rationally as you began. (In this example, they might, for example, argue that a canon actress in a different role, while notable, is as per precedents set by Greek and Quarterlife not notable on its own, and that lonelygirl362436 is Tier 4 not only because of Yousef, but because it was also created by the Creators themselves, because of a famed Hollywood actress in the lead, and because it has several hundred thousand views on YouTube.)

Over time, a consent or compromise will hopefully emerge, allowing the discussion to end in one of the following ways:
*'''Consent.''' A solution is posted and within 108 hours (four and a half days), no member of the community objects to it. Should somebody object, the same solution can be put up for public vote.
*'''Public vote.''' A solution is expressedly put up for vote, and members have 60 hours (two and a half days) to vote on the matter.
:Votes are cast by expressedly stating, ''in bold'', one of the following phrases:
:*Agree
:*Disagree
:*Indifferent
:in the first sentence in a reply to the vote. "Indifferent" votes are not counted. There have to be at least five (5) ''countable'' votes in order for the vote to become effective. Simple majority is enough. ''A failed vote does not automatically end the discussion.'' 
*'''Administrative decree.''' If a member of the administration, ''in his or her function as an administrator'', declares the discussion over, it is over, and the administration's decision on the request will be authoritive.
*'''Abortion.''' Should, in the process of discussion, the original poster come to the conclusion that the opposition is right, and there is no need to change the series's Tier, s/he has the power to officially ''abort'' the discussion by posting, ''in bold'', "I am hereby officially retracting my request for evaluation.". The evaluation will then be over, unless the decision is overridden by administrators or if at least three (3) other users explicitly state they want to continue the evaluation by posting, ''in bold'', "I would like to continue this evaluation.".
*'''Time.''' Any evaluation whose discussion takes longer than two weeks is automatically ended with a "no change" solution, under the reasoning that, if there is enough opposition and enough to discuss for two weeks, then the request does not have the necessary community backing and/or factual evidence to justify a change of the status quo. (Keep in mind that, within two weeks, you could have 5 complete votes for a solution - if all of them failed, it's obvious there is strong opposition.)

===After the evaluation===
First of all, the "spent time" counter is reset to the day the solution became permanent - be it the end of a vote, administrative decree or abortion. Should the solution include changes to the current page(s) or pageset, these changes should be implemented ''as soon as possible''; should no one else expressedly volunteer, it is the requester's duty to make sure the changes are implemented.
Should the changes not be implemented within one month (i.e., when it would already be possible to request the next evaluation), the evaluation's outcome is ''automatically reverted'' for organizational reasons. This process counts as an evaluation (with the implicit result "the community does not support the previous solution enough to actually implement it"), and thus, the "spent time" counter is reset and, as per the rules above, the next possible evaluation date is ''two'' months in the future.

This whole process admittedly sounds giant and complex, but this is only due to the many ways a discussion can change. Under normal circumstances, an evaluation can be done within three days, if the original request already includes a solution (either implicitly or explicitly) or one is quickly found, a vote is set up, and after the vote period, the count shows the solution was accepted.

{{LGPedia:UGC_desk/evaluations}}

==Notable non-series UGC==
Due to the fact that LG15 has become very popular, every single episode alone leads to the creation of dozens of new fan videos. In addition to that, there are hundreds, if not thousands of one-time videos that explicitly are connected to LG15, but are not reactions to a specific episode and don't belong to any established series. Since it is humanly impossible to cover all of them on LGPedia, and independent pages for them would lead to hundreds of orphaned and unmaintained pages, the decision was made to create a [[List of notable non-series UGC]]. Should you wish to add a video to that list, please add a section to [[Talk:List of notable non-series UGC|the list's talk page]], detailing why you think a particular video is more notable than other videos.

In general, the same [[#After the request|rules for discussion]] as for series apply, but given that a single additional row to the list is a vastly smaller task to handle and does not increase the overall pedia page workload, the discussion itself should be of light tone, and there is no need to create additional subpages, adhering to templates, and so on. Just civilly discuss with your fellow pedians if a video should be added to the list, and if they agree, do it.

{{UGCpages}}

LGPedia talk:UGC desk

2008-08-29T18:47:21Z

QtheC: nominating page for deletion

User:QtheC

2008-08-17T23:31:16Z

QtheC:

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On Inside LG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-08-17T23:29:08Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ Poem Contest Winner

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25, and just for fun a poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4366 "I love you like the letter Q"] (from Jennie to QtheC) posted on July 29.

* August 17, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/08/17/were-back Poem Contest Winner] : On Inside LG15, Amanda wrote, "Our first order of business is to announce the winner of the Poem Contest. ... Congratulations goes to QtheC (who also had the idea for the contest)!!" The winning entry was "Watcher I am" (from Virgil to Emma).

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-25T18:13:31Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ haiku

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) and [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4290 "A haiku from Bree’s Dad, Drew Avery, to Bree"]on July 25.

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-25T17:25:12Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ 24 videos in 24 hours comment

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* March 2, 2007 - QtheC posted comment 230 on [[Is He Out There?]] suggesting 24 videos in 24 hours, a concept that led to the [[12 in 12]] as documented on the [[Breeniversisms]] page and in [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306103#p306103 this forums posting].

* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) on July 25.

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-25T17:15:03Z

QtheC: /* LGPedia */

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) on July 25.

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* QtheC coined the term "[[Breeniversisms]]" and stated that page on LGPedia on June 7, 2007.
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-25T17:10:58Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */ Love Poem Contest

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

* July 22, 2008 - [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest Love Poem Contest] : On InsideLG15, Amanda wrote, "QtheC suggested this contest: “Lonelygirl15 Character Love Poem Contest” - write a love poem from one lonelygirl15 character to another lonelygirl15 character. The winning entry will receive a signed cast photograph and copy of their poem." QtheC also entered the contest by submitting the poem [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/07/22/love-poem-contest/#comment-4287 "Watcher I am"] (from Virgil to Emma) on July 25.

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-18T02:44:34Z

QtheC: /* Other Mentions / Interaction */

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

== Other Mentions / Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-07-18T02:44:08Z

QtheC: /* Other Mentions/Interaction */ message from Terrence

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

== Other Mentions/Interaction ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

* June 2008 - [http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC on Bebo] received a message from the [[KateModern]] character [[Terrence]] about the fate of [[FTO]] members [[Jeffrey]] Griffin and [[Raymond]] indicating their fate: ''"I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames."''

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

Talk:The Resistance

2008-07-03T16:24:22Z

QtheC:

'''Origin of the names'''

* "Bethany" from "Susan Bethany Campbell" may be connected to the character "Dr. Bethany" created by LG15 Production Assistant Jenni Powell for Lonelyjew15. Perhaps Jenni signed the name for Susan Cambell on the mission statement? There is also a character named [[Bethany Frady]] in the redearth88 series. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 11:24, 3 July 2008 (CDT)

Talk:The Resistance

2008-07-03T16:24:03Z

QtheC:

Talk:The Resistance

2008-07-03T16:22:03Z

QtheC: /* Origin of the Names */

'''Origin of the names'''

* "Bethany" from "Susan Bethany Campbell" may be connected to the character Dr. Bethany created by LG15 Production Assistant Jenni Powell for Lonelyjew15.

The Resistance

2008-07-03T16:16:21Z

QtheC: /* The Original Members */

'''The Resistance''' is a movement that was started sometime prior to the late 70s by a group of twelve former [[Hymn of One]] members, including [[Jonas's parents]], which was dedicated to "unearthing <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[the Order]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>'s dark history and destroying its unholy practices" ([[#Mission Statement|We Who Fight]]). Many years later, when Jonas believed his parents to be dead, he and [[TAAG|his friends]] began calling themselves by this term.

==The Original Members==
The twelve original members, Kenneth Perry Harlan, Damon Lindsey Lambien, George Thomas Kiel, Oswald Matthew Angie, Michael Byron Carruthers, Theresa Cunningham McManus, Desiree Thoreux Alcott, Christopher Raymond Nance, Susan Bethany Campbell, Joseph Carmichael Nagler, Penny Samson Rayborne, and Raymond Joseph Wharton (Jonas' Father) belonged to the Hymn of One (evidenced by their decision to renounce it in their Mission Statement) before deciding to break away and fight against it as the Resistance. In [[My Hand Hurts]], Jonas found a scrapbook that his Aunt [[Alex]] had compiled with information about them. He learned that the members had included a human rights lawyer, an economics professor, a rabbi, an ambassador, a publishing heiress, a radio station owner, a regenerative medical specialist, and a former CIA director. He also found an article about each and every one of their deaths or disappearances under mysterious circumstances.

==The Bunkers==
The Resistance is known to have a number of bunkers, details about which can be read in [[The Order in the Modern Empire]]. At the first [[the bunker|bunker]] TAAG visited, they found the following information displayed on a whiteboard, indicating what the original Resistance seemed to know about the Order at the time they were occupying it:

[[Image:Recreatewhiteboard.JPG|350px]]

==Mission Statement==
[[Image:We Who Fight.jpg|thumb|The Mission Statement]]
In [[Going Down]], Jonas found The Resistance's Mission Statement, '''We Who Fight''', which reads as follows:
{{quote|We Who Fight|
From this moment forth, the following individuals swear to uphold the values, purposes, and ideals stipulated in the consequent mission statement. We sign below to form a RESISTANCE; a counter organization opposing THE ORDER. We are dedicated to unearthing its dark history and destroying its unholy practices. The Resistance also forms to denounce a fabricated religion, known as THE HYMN OF ONE.

Together we swear to battle a centuries old oligarchy constructed by those referred to as THE ELDERS; everlasting tyrants of oppression, corruption, and unjust power who operate in secret. With our joined efforts, these immortals shall no longer affect the social, economic, and political infrastructure of our societies for their own gain.

We fight for the greater good of an unknowing people around the globe. We fight for our integrity and their safety. We fight to expose the truth.}}

==See Also==
*[[The Order in the Modern Empire]]

{{Bree's religion}}
[[Category:Bree's religion]]

Jeffrey

2008-06-29T16:26:51Z

QtheC: Undo revision 133667 by QtheC (Talk)

{{Person
| name = Jeffrey
| image = KM187-Jeffery2.jpg
| age = Deceased
| birthday =
| youtube =
| revver =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| bebo = fighttheorder
| actor = [[KM Cameos#Nick Dutton|Nick Dutton]]
| first = [[Who Are The FTO?]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Jeffrey Griffin''' is [[Dr. William Griffin]]'s nephew and the founder of [[The FTO]], an organization dedicated to bringing down [[the Order]]. Following in his uncle's footsteps, Jeffrey has apparently dedicated his life to proving that the [[Hymn of One]] is evil, [[BACK TO BUSINESS|most recently]] focusing on their connection to [[Kate]]'s murder. [[Rupert Van Helden]] and [[Steve]], both members of the Hymn of One, were very upset by these claims and [[Who Are The FTO?|sought out]] Jeffrey to try to force him to retract them. However, Jeffrey refused to budge, unlike his friend [[Raymond]] who gave in quickly to Rupert's threats.

The FTO stayed under the radar for a few months, and devised a plan to take down the Order. He and Raymond [[Much, Much Worse|contact]] [[Lauren]], who agrees to help them take down [[Michelle Clore]] and [[Terrence]]. Lauren has Raymond film her to make it look like she is [[Bump in the Night|being stalked]], and tells Charlie and Lee that someone is following her but never sees who it is. After Lauren [[Golf Day Out|argues with her friends]] at the park, She has Jeffrey and Raymond follow her and pretend to [[. (video)|kidnap her]], making it look like Terrence was the one responsible. Lauren contacts Michelle Clore and says that Terrence is willing to trade her for Shadow drugs, while Jeffrey contacts Terrence, pretending to be an emplyee of Michelle Clore. He tells Terrence that they saw him kidnap Lauren, and offers to trade him Shadow drugs for her. Despite the fact that Terrence didn't actually kidnap Lauren, he accepts the offer anyway.

Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the Shadows with a gun while Lauren [[Answers|converses]] with Michelle and [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|her Shadow]]. Michelle grows impatient and orders her shadow to take Lauren. Just as he's leaving, Terrence arrives and beats the Shadow unconscious. As Michelle and Terrence talk and begin to realize they've been set up, Jeffrey jumps out of the shadows and shoots them both. Michelle Clore is killed, but Terrence is only wounded. After leaving the scene, he [[Tez on Toast|vows]] to find who shot him. After some digging, he locates Jeffrey and Raymond, whom he ties up and films.

The last we see of Jeffrey, Terrence has pulled out a blowtorch and makes it clear that he and Raymond won't be making it out alive. In a message exchange with [[User:QtheC|QtheC]], Terrence says that "''...I don't have them anymore. They're probably at the bottom of the Thames.''"

{{KateCharIndex}}

Jeffrey

2008-06-29T16:25:27Z

QtheC: External Links added

The FTO

2008-06-29T16:22:23Z

QtheC: /* External Links */

The '''FTO''' (acronym for "Fight [[the Order]]") is a group founded by [[Jeffrey]] to bring down the Order and avenge the deaths of his uncle, [[Dr. William Griffin]], and cousin [[Dudley]]. They are based out of Jeffrey's bedroom and have an apparently wide member base, although this is only hinted at in videos.

[[Patricia]] became a member of the FTO after learning the truth behind [[Kate]]'s disappearance and [[trait positive]] background. [[Rupert Van Helden]] had a member of the [[Hymn of One]] infiltrate the organization for him in order to learn more about them. He then [[Who Are The FTO?|stormed]] their headquarters and demanded that they cease their activities and apparent defamation of the Hymn. Jeffrey responded to Rupert's threat, allowing him to believe the FTO would disband.

[[Lauren]] later approached the FTO, looking for a way to bring down the Order. She and Jeffrey hatched a plan to kill [[Michelle Clore]], her [[Shadow]], and [[Terrence]]. In order to make Michelle concerned about Lauren, they posted [[. (video)|a video]] to [[Bebo]] showing her tied up using the same chain and gag used by [[Terrence]] in [[Precious Blood]]. Terrence maintained his innocence, despite evidence to the contrary.

Lauren emailed Michelle Clore, pretending to be Terrence, stating that he would trade Lauren for Shadow drugs. She also emailed Terrence, claiming that Michelle Clore wished to give him more Shadow drugs in exchange for the safe return of Lauren. When the [[Answers|two parties met]] at their pre-determined location, Jeffrey shot at Michelle and Terrence, killing Clore.

Terrence later sought revenge by capturing Jeffrey and his friend [[Raymond]]. Both are presumed dead now, as Terrence recently claimed they were likely [http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/06/untimely-demise-of-fto.html at the bottom of the Thames]. Also, it Patricia has been found dead on Adak Island of an unknown cause. It is unclear whether the FTO will remain.

==See Also==
*[[The Resistance]]

==External Links==
*{{bebo-acct|PUIC2WFLX|The FTO on Bebo}}
*{{bebo-acct|fighttheorder|Jeffrey Griffin <fighttheorder> on Bebo}}

{{Bree's religion}}

Michelle Clore

2008-06-29T16:20:18Z

QtheC: /* Last Work */

{{Person
| name = Michelle Clore
| image = KM244-MichelleCloreDVD.jpg
| age = Unknown (deceased)
| birthday =
| youtube =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| actor = [[Valerie Cutko]]
| first = [[Dudley did it!]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Michelle Clore''' was an artist world famous for her circle pictures. She is also a high ranking [[Elder]] in the [[Hymn of One]] and [[The Order]].

==Background==
===Enticing Kate===
[[Image:KM0073MichelleCloreKate.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle and Kate]]
Michelle Clore is known to be reclusive, iconic and is very rarely seen in public. She has an American accent. She travels with [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|two body guards]], dressed in black with dark sunglasses. She claims that she is always interested in what young people are doing creatively and is particularly interested in [[Kate]]'s dream interpretation videos. She told Kate at the exhibition at the [[Second Space Gallery ]] that she has made some really fine work, that a lot of people are very interested in her and that she has caused "a lot of buzz". After the [[The Gallery - 6pm 22nd September 2007| shooting incident]] she thanked Kate for saving her life. When Kate demanded to know what the shooter meant by [[the Order]], Michelle Clore replied "let me show you."

Michelle Clore [[Why?|met with Kate]] immediately before Kate's disappearance. It is unknown what she told Kate, but Kate was visibly upset during their meeting and Kate's behavior changed dramatically afterwards. Kate assaulted [[Charlie]] and willingly got into a van with a man in a dark suit and sunglasses. Kate later returns and says that she has been studying art with Michelle, and adapts many of Michelle's practices, many of them brutal.

[[Dudley]] and [[Dr. William Griffin]] theorized that Michelle Clore was an [[Elder]] of [[the Order]]. It is soon discovered that her [http://bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoNbr=1&MemberId=4267425489&PhotoAlbumId=5740115276 circle picture contains a stereogram] of the [[Hymn of One]] symbol and [[Hear My Song|her name is on the Hymn of One register]]. Later events seem to confirm the theory, as Michelle Clore is regularly seen with a Shadow and has a substantial amount of authority within the Hymn of One and The Order itself.

===Plan Failed===
[[Image:KM0143-CloreonPhone.jpg|thumb|right|Michelle reveals her intentions.]]
After Kate murders Dudley, she slips into a hysterical state and turns to Michelle for guidance. They make [[Abstract Heart|an art video together]], which exhibits many poses that are seen in [[The Ceremony]] that robs Trait Positive girls of their blood, extending the life of the Elder. Not long after, Michelle and Kate journey to America where they spent a month studying and creating art. Unbeknownst to her, [[Steve]] was keeping surveillance, and captured Michelle revealing her true plan on camera.

Soon after Kate and Michelle returned to London, Steve abducted Kate and contacted Charlie through a series of Text Messages. Once Charlie arrived, Steve [[Coming Home for Xmas|revealed]] that Michelle had duped Kate into believing that Kate was an Elder whose memory was erased. In actuality, Michelle was keeping an eye on Kate to make sure her [[trait positive]] levels became normal again. This implies that Kate was being prepared for the [[Ceremony]]. Once Kate found out, she ran off with a list of genetically altered trait positives and lived on the streets. Kate's friends believed that Kate defected back to Michelle, but Michelle [[Kate Come Home|admitted]] that she had a team trying to track down Kate and did not know her whereabouts.

The Search was cut short on [[Resolution|New Year's Day]], when [[Terrence]] sought retaliation on Clore and her [[Watcher]]s for stealing [[Gavin]] & [[Tariq]]'s software that he had invested in. As Terrence pulled a semi-automatic weapon on a defenseless Clore, a group of Watchers and [[Shadow]]s stormed in and saved Michelle. The next day, Michelle and her bodyguards left from Heathrow Airport to attend an artistic retreat in Ardak Island, where she remained for the next few weeks, making videos and taking stock of the situation.

===Dealing with Terrence===
Following Kate's murder, Charlie sought Michelle for answers regarding Kate's final days. Michelle denied having anything to do with Kate's murder, and suggested that fault may lie with [[Steve]]. However, it is later revealed that she was well aware that Terrence was the actual culprit, and had sent him to retrieve Kate as compensation for the attack on her. However, Terrence accidentally kills Kate, so Michelle and the rest of the Order have him take care of the Girls on the list in order to make up for his mistake.

[[Image:KM0282-MichelleWhy.jpg|thumb|left|Clore and Terry's final meeting.]]
While Charlie and Steve [[Precious Blood: 6PM|search the bunker]] for Terrence, they find a disk containing Michelle Clore speaking in Turkish. It is [[Outta Here|later revealed]] that she has put a hit out on the [[TAAG|Los Angeles-based resistance group]]. She continues to keep a low profile until [[Straight To The Top|Gavin finds her]] and accuses her of conspiring with Kate to disrupt his life. She ignores him, and tries to lure [[Lauren]] into her grasp as she had Kate, but fails, receiving a slap instead.

Two weeks later, [[Jeffrey]] and [[Raymond]] of [[The FTO]], an organization revolving around bringing down the Order, [[Much, Much Worse|get Lauren to play part]] in [[Answers|a Sting Operation]] against Michelle. Lauren contacts her and tells her that Terrence was with her and wanted Shadow drugs. Michelle and her Shadow meet her on a rooftop, while Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the shadows with a gun. Michelle is visibly annoyed that Terrence isn't there, and becomes impatient. She orders her Shadow to take Lauren, and as he does so, Terrence shows up and beats him until he looses consciousness. While Michelle and Terrence argue, Jeffrey jumps out and shoots them both, killing Michelle and wounding Terrence.

Not long after, news of Michelle's demise [[The Day She Died|hit the airwaves]]. However, it seems that either The FTO or the Order have made it look like a suicide to either hide their crime or keep the Order out of the spotlight, respectively.

==Last Work==
'''Michelle Clore's Last Work''' refers to the last artwork she produced before her death. It is a key story element of both the "Trouble In Paris" videos and the "The Last Work" videos (see [[List of KateModern videos]]).

On June 5th, [[The FTO]] founder [[Jeffrey]] Griffin posted a list of theories on his bebo page, [http://www.bebo.com/fighttheorder fighttheorder], under the title "Michele Clore's Last Work." It said:

:''The FTO has discovered that Michelle Clore has created a piece which will be made public only in the event of her death. The reasons for the existence of this work and why she wants exhibit it posthumously are unclear. In the course of our investigations we have come across a number of different theories as to the true nature of this piece:''

:''1. It contains the secret to eliminating trait-positivity in carriers' blood.''
:''2. It contains the codes and passwords needed to access her fortune.''
:''3. It contains a list of Order Elders with whom Michelle Clore has to compete for the blood of trait-positive girls.''
:''4. It contains the names of those girls who were made artificially trait-positive in the trials which the Order tricked Dr Griffin into carrying out.''
:''5. It contains sensitive information exposing the inner workings of the Order and records of their treachery stretching back hundreds of years.''
:''6. It is just another stunt dreamt up by an artist with an enormous ego.''

:''If anyone has any further information about Michelle Clore's last work, please get in touch.''

:''FTO!''

Shortly after Michelle Clore's death, reported in the June 6th video [[The Day She Died]], the first on-camera reference to her last artwork appears in [[Where is She?]] (posted on June 10th), when Lee reads from a newspaper, "There's been some controversy over the late Michelle Clore's latest and most valuable piece of work."

[[Image:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg|thumb|left]]In [[The Morning After (KateModern)]], [[Charlie]] is arrested for theft when the French police find what later turns out to be a forgery of the artwork in her car. An image in the circular style of Michelle Clore appears briefly in [[Name the Traitor!]], and is presumed to be of her last work.

In [[The Traitor Revealed]], the artwork from Charlie's car turns out to be a forgery, and it is implied that [[Julia]], [[Rupert Van Helden]], and [[Michelle Clore's Shadow]] were somehow responsible for framing [[Charlie]], so that they could steal the real artwork for themselves.

In [[The Last Work: 9PM]], Michelle Clore's shadow reveals that he wants the artwork for the "bank details" hidden inside of it, confirming one of the FTO theories about the piece. Notably, this is not one of the theories mentioned by Steve in [[Pointing Fingers]].

{{clr}}

==Notes==
*Michelle has been given the nickname, "The Claw" by Charlie & Gavin.
*Michelle Clore may be named after the "Clore Gallery" at the Tate Britain.

==See Also==
*[[Elder]]s

==Theories==
Follow this [[Theories About Characters#Michelle Clore|link]] for theories about Michelle Clore.

{{KateCharIndex}}

Michelle Clore

2008-06-29T16:05:05Z

QtheC: /* Last Work */ The Traitor Revealed

{{Person
| name = Michelle Clore
| image = KM244-MichelleCloreDVD.jpg
| age = Unknown (deceased)
| birthday =
| youtube =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| actor = [[Valerie Cutko]]
| first = [[Dudley did it!]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Michelle Clore''' was an artist world famous for her circle pictures. She is also a high ranking [[Elder]] in the [[Hymn of One]] and [[The Order]].

==Background==
===Enticing Kate===
[[Image:KM0073MichelleCloreKate.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle and Kate]]
Michelle Clore is known to be reclusive, iconic and is very rarely seen in public. She has an American accent. She travels with [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|two body guards]], dressed in black with dark sunglasses. She claims that she is always interested in what young people are doing creatively and is particularly interested in [[Kate]]'s dream interpretation videos. She told Kate at the exhibition at the [[Second Space Gallery ]] that she has made some really fine work, that a lot of people are very interested in her and that she has caused "a lot of buzz". After the [[The Gallery - 6pm 22nd September 2007| shooting incident]] she thanked Kate for saving her life. When Kate demanded to know what the shooter meant by [[the Order]], Michelle Clore replied "let me show you."

Michelle Clore [[Why?|met with Kate]] immediately before Kate's disappearance. It is unknown what she told Kate, but Kate was visibly upset during their meeting and Kate's behavior changed dramatically afterwards. Kate assaulted [[Charlie]] and willingly got into a van with a man in a dark suit and sunglasses. Kate later returns and says that she has been studying art with Michelle, and adapts many of Michelle's practices, many of them brutal.

[[Dudley]] and [[Dr. William Griffin]] theorized that Michelle Clore was an [[Elder]] of [[the Order]]. It is soon discovered that her [http://bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoNbr=1&MemberId=4267425489&PhotoAlbumId=5740115276 circle picture contains a stereogram] of the [[Hymn of One]] symbol and [[Hear My Song|her name is on the Hymn of One register]]. Later events seem to confirm the theory, as Michelle Clore is regularly seen with a Shadow and has a substantial amount of authority within the Hymn of One and The Order itself.

===Plan Failed===
[[Image:KM0143-CloreonPhone.jpg|thumb|right|Michelle reveals her intentions.]]
After Kate murders Dudley, she slips into a hysterical state and turns to Michelle for guidance. They make [[Abstract Heart|an art video together]], which exhibits many poses that are seen in [[The Ceremony]] that robs Trait Positive girls of their blood, extending the life of the Elder. Not long after, Michelle and Kate journey to America where they spent a month studying and creating art. Unbeknownst to her, [[Steve]] was keeping surveillance, and captured Michelle revealing her true plan on camera.

Soon after Kate and Michelle returned to London, Steve abducted Kate and contacted Charlie through a series of Text Messages. Once Charlie arrived, Steve [[Coming Home for Xmas|revealed]] that Michelle had duped Kate into believing that Kate was an Elder whose memory was erased. In actuality, Michelle was keeping an eye on Kate to make sure her [[trait positive]] levels became normal again. This implies that Kate was being prepared for the [[Ceremony]]. Once Kate found out, she ran off with a list of genetically altered trait positives and lived on the streets. Kate's friends believed that Kate defected back to Michelle, but Michelle [[Kate Come Home|admitted]] that she had a team trying to track down Kate and did not know her whereabouts.

The Search was cut short on [[Resolution|New Year's Day]], when [[Terrence]] sought retaliation on Clore and her [[Watcher]]s for stealing [[Gavin]] & [[Tariq]]'s software that he had invested in. As Terrence pulled a semi-automatic weapon on a defenseless Clore, a group of Watchers and [[Shadow]]s stormed in and saved Michelle. The next day, Michelle and her bodyguards left from Heathrow Airport to attend an artistic retreat in Ardak Island, where she remained for the next few weeks, making videos and taking stock of the situation.

===Dealing with Terrence===
Following Kate's murder, Charlie sought Michelle for answers regarding Kate's final days. Michelle denied having anything to do with Kate's murder, and suggested that fault may lie with [[Steve]]. However, it is later revealed that she was well aware that Terrence was the actual culprit, and had sent him to retrieve Kate as compensation for the attack on her. However, Terrence accidentally kills Kate, so Michelle and the rest of the Order have him take care of the Girls on the list in order to make up for his mistake.

[[Image:KM0282-MichelleWhy.jpg|thumb|left|Clore and Terry's final meeting.]]
While Charlie and Steve [[Precious Blood: 6PM|search the bunker]] for Terrence, they find a disk containing Michelle Clore speaking in Turkish. It is [[Outta Here|later revealed]] that she has put a hit out on the [[TAAG|Los Angeles-based resistance group]]. She continues to keep a low profile until [[Straight To The Top|Gavin finds her]] and accuses her of conspiring with Kate to disrupt his life. She ignores him, and tries to lure [[Lauren]] into her grasp as she had Kate, but fails, receiving a slap instead.

Two weeks later, [[Jeffrey]] and [[Raymond]] of [[The FTO]], an organization revolving around bringing down the Order, [[Much, Much Worse|get Lauren to play part]] in [[Answers|a Sting Operation]] against Michelle. Lauren contacts her and tells her that Terrence was with her and wanted Shadow drugs. Michelle and her Shadow meet her on a rooftop, while Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the shadows with a gun. Michelle is visibly annoyed that Terrence isn't there, and becomes impatient. She orders her Shadow to take Lauren, and as he does so, Terrence shows up and beats him until he looses consciousness. While Michelle and Terrence argue, Jeffrey jumps out and shoots them both, killing Michelle and wounding Terrence.

Not long after, news of Michelle's demise [[The Day She Died|hit the airwaves]]. However, it seems that either The FTO or the Order have made it look like a suicide to either hide their crime or keep the Order out of the spotlight, respectively.

==Last Work==
'''Michelle Clore's Last Work''' refers to the last artwork she produced before her death. It is a key story element of both the "Trouble In Paris" videos and the "The Last Work" videos (see [[List of KateModern videos]]).

On June 5th, FTO member Jeffrey Griffin posted a list of theories on his bebo page, [http://www.bebo.com/fighttheorder fighttheorder], under the title "Michele Clore's Last Work." It said:

:''The FTO has discovered that Michelle Clore has created a piece which will be made public only in the event of her death. The reasons for the existence of this work and why she wants exhibit it posthumously are unclear. In the course of our investigations we have come across a number of different theories as to the true nature of this piece:''

:''1. It contains the secret to eliminating trait-positivity in carriers' blood.''
:''2. It contains the codes and passwords needed to access her fortune.''
:''3. It contains a list of Order Elders with whom Michelle Clore has to compete for the blood of trait-positive girls.''
:''4. It contains the names of those girls who were made artificially trait-positive in the trials which the Order tricked Dr Griffin into carrying out.''
:''5. It contains sensitive information exposing the inner workings of the Order and records of their treachery stretching back hundreds of years.''
:''6. It is just another stunt dreamt up by an artist with an enormous ego.''

:''If anyone has any further information about Michelle Clore's last work, please get in touch.''

:''FTO!''

Shortly after Michelle Clore's death, reported in the June 6th video [[The Day She Died]], the first on-camera reference to her last artwork appears in [[Where is She?]] (posted on June 10th), when Lee reads from a newspaper, "There's been some controversy over the late Michelle Clore's latest and most valuable piece of work."

[[Image:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg|thumb|left]]In [[The Morning After (KateModern)]], [[Charlie]] is arrested for theft when the French police find what later turns out to be a forgery of the artwork in her car. An image in the circular style of Michelle Clore appears briefly in [[Name the Traitor!]], and is presumed to be of her last work.

In [[The Traitor Revealed]], the artwork from Charlie's car turns out to be a forgery, and it is implied that [[Julia]], [[Rupert Van Helden]], and [[Michelle Clore's Shadow]] were somehow responsible for framing [[Charlie]], so that they could steal the real artwork for themselves.

In [[The Last Work: 9PM]], Michelle Clore's shadow reveals that he wants the artwork for the "bank details" hidden inside of it, confirming one of the FTO theories about the piece. Notably, this is not one of the theories mentioned by Steve in [[Pointing Fingers]].

{{clr}}

==Notes==
*Michelle has been given the nickname, "The Claw" by Charlie & Gavin.
*Michelle Clore may be named after the "Clore Gallery" at the Tate Britain.

==See Also==
*[[Elder]]s

==Theories==
Follow this [[Theories About Characters#Michelle Clore|link]] for theories about Michelle Clore.

{{KateCharIndex}}

Michelle Clore

2008-06-29T15:53:42Z

QtheC: last work details

{{Person
| name = Michelle Clore
| image = KM244-MichelleCloreDVD.jpg
| age = Unknown (deceased)
| birthday =
| youtube =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| actor = [[Valerie Cutko]]
| first = [[Dudley did it!]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Michelle Clore''' was an artist world famous for her circle pictures. She is also a high ranking [[Elder]] in the [[Hymn of One]] and [[The Order]].

==Background==
===Enticing Kate===
[[Image:KM0073MichelleCloreKate.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle and Kate]]
Michelle Clore is known to be reclusive, iconic and is very rarely seen in public. She has an American accent. She travels with [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|two body guards]], dressed in black with dark sunglasses. She claims that she is always interested in what young people are doing creatively and is particularly interested in [[Kate]]'s dream interpretation videos. She told Kate at the exhibition at the [[Second Space Gallery ]] that she has made some really fine work, that a lot of people are very interested in her and that she has caused "a lot of buzz". After the [[The Gallery - 6pm 22nd September 2007| shooting incident]] she thanked Kate for saving her life. When Kate demanded to know what the shooter meant by [[the Order]], Michelle Clore replied "let me show you."

Michelle Clore [[Why?|met with Kate]] immediately before Kate's disappearance. It is unknown what she told Kate, but Kate was visibly upset during their meeting and Kate's behavior changed dramatically afterwards. Kate assaulted [[Charlie]] and willingly got into a van with a man in a dark suit and sunglasses. Kate later returns and says that she has been studying art with Michelle, and adapts many of Michelle's practices, many of them brutal.

[[Dudley]] and [[Dr. William Griffin]] theorized that Michelle Clore was an [[Elder]] of [[the Order]]. It is soon discovered that her [http://bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoNbr=1&MemberId=4267425489&PhotoAlbumId=5740115276 circle picture contains a stereogram] of the [[Hymn of One]] symbol and [[Hear My Song|her name is on the Hymn of One register]]. Later events seem to confirm the theory, as Michelle Clore is regularly seen with a Shadow and has a substantial amount of authority within the Hymn of One and The Order itself.

===Plan Failed===
[[Image:KM0143-CloreonPhone.jpg|thumb|right|Michelle reveals her intentions.]]
After Kate murders Dudley, she slips into a hysterical state and turns to Michelle for guidance. They make [[Abstract Heart|an art video together]], which exhibits many poses that are seen in [[The Ceremony]] that robs Trait Positive girls of their blood, extending the life of the Elder. Not long after, Michelle and Kate journey to America where they spent a month studying and creating art. Unbeknownst to her, [[Steve]] was keeping surveillance, and captured Michelle revealing her true plan on camera.

Soon after Kate and Michelle returned to London, Steve abducted Kate and contacted Charlie through a series of Text Messages. Once Charlie arrived, Steve [[Coming Home for Xmas|revealed]] that Michelle had duped Kate into believing that Kate was an Elder whose memory was erased. In actuality, Michelle was keeping an eye on Kate to make sure her [[trait positive]] levels became normal again. This implies that Kate was being prepared for the [[Ceremony]]. Once Kate found out, she ran off with a list of genetically altered trait positives and lived on the streets. Kate's friends believed that Kate defected back to Michelle, but Michelle [[Kate Come Home|admitted]] that she had a team trying to track down Kate and did not know her whereabouts.

The Search was cut short on [[Resolution|New Year's Day]], when [[Terrence]] sought retaliation on Clore and her [[Watcher]]s for stealing [[Gavin]] & [[Tariq]]'s software that he had invested in. As Terrence pulled a semi-automatic weapon on a defenseless Clore, a group of Watchers and [[Shadow]]s stormed in and saved Michelle. The next day, Michelle and her bodyguards left from Heathrow Airport to attend an artistic retreat in Ardak Island, where she remained for the next few weeks, making videos and taking stock of the situation.

===Dealing with Terrence===
Following Kate's murder, Charlie sought Michelle for answers regarding Kate's final days. Michelle denied having anything to do with Kate's murder, and suggested that fault may lie with [[Steve]]. However, it is later revealed that she was well aware that Terrence was the actual culprit, and had sent him to retrieve Kate as compensation for the attack on her. However, Terrence accidentally kills Kate, so Michelle and the rest of the Order have him take care of the Girls on the list in order to make up for his mistake.

[[Image:KM0282-MichelleWhy.jpg|thumb|left|Clore and Terry's final meeting.]]
While Charlie and Steve [[Precious Blood: 6PM|search the bunker]] for Terrence, they find a disk containing Michelle Clore speaking in Turkish. It is [[Outta Here|later revealed]] that she has put a hit out on the [[TAAG|Los Angeles-based resistance group]]. She continues to keep a low profile until [[Straight To The Top|Gavin finds her]] and accuses her of conspiring with Kate to disrupt his life. She ignores him, and tries to lure [[Lauren]] into her grasp as she had Kate, but fails, receiving a slap instead.

Two weeks later, [[Jeffrey]] and [[Raymond]] of [[The FTO]], an organization revolving around bringing down the Order, [[Much, Much Worse|get Lauren to play part]] in [[Answers|a Sting Operation]] against Michelle. Lauren contacts her and tells her that Terrence was with her and wanted Shadow drugs. Michelle and her Shadow meet her on a rooftop, while Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the shadows with a gun. Michelle is visibly annoyed that Terrence isn't there, and becomes impatient. She orders her Shadow to take Lauren, and as he does so, Terrence shows up and beats him until he looses consciousness. While Michelle and Terrence argue, Jeffrey jumps out and shoots them both, killing Michelle and wounding Terrence.

Not long after, news of Michelle's demise [[The Day She Died|hit the airwaves]]. However, it seems that either The FTO or the Order have made it look like a suicide to either hide their crime or keep the Order out of the spotlight, respectively.

==Last Work==
'''Michelle Clore's Last Work''' refers to the last artwork she produced before her death. It is a key story element of both the "Trouble In Paris" videos and the "The Last Work" videos (see [[List of KateModern videos]]).

On June 5th, FTO member Jeffrey Griffin posted a list of theories on his bebo page, [http://www.bebo.com/fighttheorder fighttheorder], under the title "Michele Clore's Last Work." It said:

:''The FTO has discovered that Michelle Clore has created a piece which will be made public only in the event of her death. The reasons for the existence of this work and why she wants exhibit it posthumously are unclear. In the course of our investigations we have come across a number of different theories as to the true nature of this piece:''

:''1. It contains the secret to eliminating trait-positivity in carriers' blood.''
:''2. It contains the codes and passwords needed to access her fortune.''
:''3. It contains a list of Order Elders with whom Michelle Clore has to compete for the blood of trait-positive girls.''
:''4. It contains the names of those girls who were made artificially trait-positive in the trials which the Order tricked Dr Griffin into carrying out.''
:''5. It contains sensitive information exposing the inner workings of the Order and records of their treachery stretching back hundreds of years.''
:''6. It is just another stunt dreamt up by an artist with an enormous ego.''

:''If anyone has any further information about Michelle Clore's last work, please get in touch.''

:''FTO!''

Shortly after Michelle Clore's death, reported in the June 6th video [[The Day She Died]], the first on-camera reference to her last artwork appears in [[Where is She?]] (posted on June 10th), when Lee reads from a newspaper, "There's been some controversy over the late Michelle Clore's latest and most valuable piece of work."

[[Image:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg|thumb|left]]In [[The Morning After (KateModern)]], Charlie is arrested for theft when the French police find what later turns out to be a forgery of the artwork in her car. An image in the circular style of Michelle Clore appears briefly in [[Name the Traitor!]], and is presumed to be of her last work.

In [[The Last Work: 9PM]], Michelle Clore's shadow reveals that he wants the artwork for the "bank details" hidden inside of it, confirming one of the FTO theories about the piece. Notably, this is not one of the theories mentioned by Steve in [[Pointing Fingers]].

{{clr}}

==Notes==
*Michelle has been given the nickname, "The Claw" by Charlie & Gavin.
*Michelle Clore may be named after the "Clore Gallery" at the Tate Britain.

==See Also==
*[[Elder]]s

==Theories==
Follow this [[Theories About Characters#Michelle Clore|link]] for theories about Michelle Clore.

{{KateCharIndex}}

Michelle Clore

2008-06-28T13:45:37Z

QtheC: /* Background */

{{Person
| name = Michelle Clore
| image = KM244-MichelleCloreDVD.jpg
| age = Unknown (deceased)
| birthday =
| youtube =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| actor = [[Valerie Cutko]]
| first = [[Dudley did it!]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Michelle Clore''' was an artist world famous for her circle pictures. She is also a high ranking [[Elder]] in the [[Hymn of One]] and [[The Order]].

==Background==
===Enticing Kate===
[[Image:KM0073MichelleCloreKate.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle and Kate]]
Michelle Clore is known to be reclusive, iconic and is very rarely seen in public. She has an American accent. She travels with [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|two body guards]], dressed in black with dark sunglasses. She claims that she is always interested in what young people are doing creatively and is particularly interested in [[Kate]]'s dream interpretation videos. She told Kate at the exhibition at the [[Second Space Gallery ]] that she has made some really fine work, that a lot of people are very interested in her and that she has caused "a lot of buzz". After the [[The Gallery - 6pm 22nd September 2007| shooting incident]] she thanked Kate for saving her life. When Kate demanded to know what the shooter meant by [[the Order]], Michelle Clore replied "let me show you."

Michelle Clore [[Why?|met with Kate]] immediately before Kate's disappearance. It is unknown what she told Kate, but Kate was visibly upset during their meeting and Kate's behavior changed dramatically afterwards. Kate assaulted [[Charlie]] and willingly got into a van with a man in a dark suit and sunglasses. Kate later returns and says that she has been studying art with Michelle, and adapts many of Michelle's practices, many of them brutal.

[[Dudley]] and [[Dr. William Griffin]] theorized that Michelle Clore was an [[Elder]] of [[the Order]]. It is soon discovered that her [http://bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoNbr=1&MemberId=4267425489&PhotoAlbumId=5740115276 circle picture contains a stereogram] of the [[Hymn of One]] symbol and [[Hear My Song|her name is on the Hymn of One register]]. Later events seem to confirm the theory, as Michelle Clore is regularly seen with a Shadow and has a substantial amount of authority within the Hymn of One and The Order itself.

===Plan Failed===
[[Image:KM0143-CloreonPhone.jpg|thumb|right|Michelle reveals her intentions.]]
After Kate murders Dudley, she slips into a hysterical state and turns to Michelle for guidance. They make [[Abstract Heart|an art video together]], which exhibits many poses that are seen in [[The Ceremony]] that robs Trait Positive girls of their blood, extending the life of the Elder. Not long after, Michelle and Kate journey to America where they spent a month studying and creating art. Unbeknownst to her, [[Steve]] was keeping surveillance, and captured Michelle revealing her true plan on camera.

Soon after Kate and Michelle returned to London, Steve abducted Kate and contacted Charlie through a series of Text Messages. Once Charlie arrived, Steve [[Coming Home for Xmas|revealed]] that Michelle had duped Kate into believing that Kate was an Elder whose memory was erased. In actuality, Michelle was keeping an eye on Kate to make sure her [[trait positive]] levels became normal again. This implies that Kate was being prepared for the [[Ceremony]]. Once Kate found out, she ran off with a list of genetically altered trait positives and lived on the streets. Kate's friends believed that Kate defected back to Michelle, but Michelle [[Kate Come Home|admitted]] that she had a team trying to track down Kate and did not know her whereabouts.

The Search was cut short on [[Resolution|New Year's Day]], when [[Terrence]] sought retaliation on Clore and her [[Watcher]]s for stealing [[Gavin]] & [[Tariq]]'s software that he had invested in. As Terrence pulled a semi-automatic weapon on a defenseless Clore, a group of Watchers and [[Shadow]]s stormed in and saved Michelle. The next day, Michelle and her bodyguards left from Heathrow Airport to attend an artistic retreat in Ardak Island, where she remained for the next few weeks, making videos and taking stock of the situation.

===Dealing with Terrence===
Following Kate's murder, Charlie sought Michelle for answers regarding Kate's final days. Michelle denied having anything to do with Kate's murder, and suggested that fault may lie with [[Steve]]. However, it is later revealed that she was well aware that Terrence was the actual culprit, and had sent him to retrieve Kate as compensation for the attack on her. However, Terrence accidentally kills Kate, so Michelle and the rest of the Order have him take care of the Girls on the list in order to make up for his mistake.

[[Image:KM0282-MichelleWhy.jpg|thumb|left|Clore and Terry's final meeting.]]
While Charlie and Steve [[Precious Blood: 6PM|search the bunker]] for Terrence, they find a disk containing Michelle Clore speaking in Turkish. It is [[Outta Here|later revealed]] that she has put a hit out on the [[TAAG|Los Angeles-based resistance group]]. She continues to keep a low profile until [[Straight To The Top|Gavin finds her]] and accuses her of conspiring with Kate to disrupt his life. She ignores him, and tries to lure [[Lauren]] into her grasp as she had Kate, but fails, receiving a slap instead.

Two weeks later, [[Jeffrey]] and [[Raymond]] of [[The FTO]], an organization revolving around bringing down the Order, [[Much, Much Worse|get Lauren to play part]] in [[Answers|a Sting Operation]] against Michelle. Lauren contacts her and tells her that Terrence was with her and wanted Shadow drugs. Michelle and her Shadow meet her on a rooftop, while Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the shadows with a gun. Michelle is visibly annoyed that Terrence isn't there, and becomes impatient. She orders her Shadow to take Lauren, and as he does so, Terrence shows up and beats him until he looses consciousness. While Michelle and Terrence argue, Jeffrey jumps out and shoots them both, killing Michelle and wounding Terrence.

Not long after, news of Michelle's demise [[The Day She Died|hit the airwaves]]. However, it seems that either The FTO or the Order have made it look like a suicide to either hide their crime or keep the Order out of the spotlight, respectively.

===Last Work===
[[Image:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle Clore's Last Work]]An image in the circular style of Michelle Clore appears briefly in [[Name the Traitor!]], that may be of her last work.
{{clr}}

==Notes==
*Michelle has been given the nickname, "The Claw" by Charlie & Gavin.
*Michelle Clore may be named after the "Clore Gallery" at the Tate Britain.

==See Also==
*[[Elder]]s

==Theories==
Follow this [[Theories About Characters#Michelle Clore|link]] for theories about Michelle Clore.

{{KateCharIndex}}

Michelle Clore

2008-06-28T13:43:51Z

QtheC: Last Work image added from Name the Traitor!

{{Person
| name = Michelle Clore
| image = KM244-MichelleCloreDVD.jpg
| age = Unknown (deceased)
| birthday =
| youtube =
| myspace =
| forum-posts =
| actor = [[Valerie Cutko]]
| first = [[Dudley did it!]]
| last = [[KateModern S2 Week 22 Recap]]
| series = KM
}}
'''Michelle Clore''' was an artist world famous for her circle pictures. She is also a high ranking [[Elder]] in the [[Hymn of One]] and [[The Order]].

==Background==
===Enticing Kate===
[[Image:KM0073MichelleCloreKate.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle and Kate]]
Michelle Clore is known to be reclusive, iconic and is very rarely seen in public. She has an American accent. She travels with [[Michelle Clore's Shadow|two body guards]], dressed in black with dark sunglasses. She claims that she is always interested in what young people are doing creatively and is particularly interested in [[Kate]]'s dream interpretation videos. She told Kate at the exhibition at the [[Second Space Gallery ]] that she has made some really fine work, that a lot of people are very interested in her and that she has caused "a lot of buzz". After the [[The Gallery - 6pm 22nd September 2007| shooting incident]] she thanked Kate for saving her life. When Kate demanded to know what the shooter meant by [[the Order]], Michelle Clore replied "let me show you."

Michelle Clore [[Why?|met with Kate]] immediately before Kate's disappearance. It is unknown what she told Kate, but Kate was visibly upset during their meeting and Kate's behavior changed dramatically afterwards. Kate assaulted [[Charlie]] and willingly got into a van with a man in a dark suit and sunglasses. Kate later returns and says that she has been studying art with Michelle, and adapts many of Michelle's practices, many of them brutal.

[[Dudley]] and [[Dr. William Griffin]] theorized that Michelle Clore was an [[Elder]] of [[the Order]]. It is soon discovered that her [http://bebo.com/PhotoAlbum.jsp?PhotoNbr=1&MemberId=4267425489&PhotoAlbumId=5740115276 circle picture contains a stereogram] of the [[Hymn of One]] symbol and [[Hear My Song|her name is on the Hymn of One register]]. Later events seem to confirm the theory, as Michelle Clore is regularly seen with a Shadow and has a substantial amount of authority within the Hymn of One and The Order itself.

===Plan Failed===
[[Image:KM0143-CloreonPhone.jpg|thumb|right|Michelle reveals her intentions.]]
After Kate murders Dudley, she slips into a hysterical state and turns to Michelle for guidance. They make [[Abstract Heart|an art video together]], which exhibits many poses that are seen in [[The Ceremony]] that robs Trait Positive girls of their blood, extending the life of the Elder. Not long after, Michelle and Kate journey to America where they spent a month studying and creating art. Unbeknownst to her, [[Steve]] was keeping surveillance, and captured Michelle revealing her true plan on camera.

Soon after Kate and Michelle returned to London, Steve abducted Kate and contacted Charlie through a series of Text Messages. Once Charlie arrived, Steve [[Coming Home for Xmas|revealed]] that Michelle had duped Kate into believing that Kate was an Elder whose memory was erased. In actuality, Michelle was keeping an eye on Kate to make sure her [[trait positive]] levels became normal again. This implies that Kate was being prepared for the [[Ceremony]]. Once Kate found out, she ran off with a list of genetically altered trait positives and lived on the streets. Kate's friends believed that Kate defected back to Michelle, but Michelle [[Kate Come Home|admitted]] that she had a team trying to track down Kate and did not know her whereabouts.

The Search was cut short on [[Resolution|New Year's Day]], when [[Terrence]] sought retaliation on Clore and her [[Watcher]]s for stealing [[Gavin]] & [[Tariq]]'s software that he had invested in. As Terrence pulled a semi-automatic weapon on a defenseless Clore, a group of Watchers and [[Shadow]]s stormed in and saved Michelle. The next day, Michelle and her bodyguards left from Heathrow Airport to attend an artistic retreat in Ardak Island, where she remained for the next few weeks, making videos and taking stock of the situation.

===Dealing with Terrence===
Following Kate's murder, Charlie sought Michelle for answers regarding Kate's final days. Michelle denied having anything to do with Kate's murder, and suggested that fault may lie with [[Steve]]. However, it is later revealed that she was well aware that Terrence was the actual culprit, and had sent him to retrieve Kate as compensation for the attack on her. However, Terrence accidentally kills Kate, so Michelle and the rest of the Order have him take care of the Girls on the list in order to make up for his mistake.

[[Image:KM0282-MichelleWhy.jpg|thumb|left|Clore and Terry's final meeting.]]
While Charlie and Steve [[Precious Blood: 6PM|search the bunker]] for Terrence, they find a disk containing Michelle Clore speaking in Turkish. It is [[Outta Here|later revealed]] that she has put a hit out on the [[TAAG|Los Angeles-based resistance group]]. She continues to keep a low profile until [[Straight To The Top|Gavin finds her]] and accuses her of conspiring with Kate to disrupt his life. She ignores him, and tries to lure [[Lauren]] into her grasp as she had Kate, but fails, receiving a slap instead.

Two weeks later, [[Jeffrey]] and [[Raymond]] of [[The FTO]], an organization revolving around bringing down the Order, [[Much, Much Worse|get Lauren to play part]] in [[Answers|a Sting Operation]] against Michelle. Lauren contacts her and tells her that Terrence was with her and wanted Shadow drugs. Michelle and her Shadow meet her on a rooftop, while Jeffrey and Raymond hide in the shadows with a gun. Michelle is visibly annoyed that Terrence isn't there, and becomes impatient. She orders her Shadow to take Lauren, and as he does so, Terrence shows up and beats him until he looses consciousness. While Michelle and Terrence argue, Jeffrey jumps out and shoots them both, killing Michelle and wounding Terrence.

Not long after, news of Michelle's demise [[The Day She Died|hit the airwaves]]. However, it seems that either The FTO or the Order have made it look like a suicide to either hide their crime or keep the Order out of the spotlight, respectively.

===Last Work===
[[Image:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg|thumb|left|Michelle Clore's Last Work]]An image in the circular style of Michelle Clore appears briefly in [[Name the Traitor!]], that may be of her last work.

==Notes==
*Michelle has been given the nickname, "The Claw" by Charlie & Gavin.
*Michelle Clore may be named after the "Clore Gallery" at the Tate Britain.

==See Also==
*[[Elder]]s

==Theories==
Follow this [[Theories About Characters#Michelle Clore|link]] for theories about Michelle Clore.

{{KateCharIndex}}

File:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg

2008-06-28T13:39:30Z

QtheC:

[[Category:KateModern images]]

File:KM0302-MichelleCloresLastWork.jpg

2008-06-28T13:38:46Z

QtheC: Category:Katemodern images

[[Category:Katemodern images]]

Talk:A Necessary Response

2008-05-23T14:00:45Z

QtheC: against removal

Do not delete this page's content. The 'revamp' should focus on organizing/improving information, not removing it from the LGPedia.

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-05-13T18:30:50Z

QtheC: /* Dreams from the Breeniverse */

:'''''Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is currently in progress. Please do not initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation.''' Click [[#Schedule|here]] for further information on the process.''

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
*[[The 707 clique]]
*[[Aaronbeast]]
*[[Acrowleyorder]]
*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
*[[Breeiswaiting]]
*[[Brucker]]
*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
*[[Cassie UGC]]
**[[Cassieiswatching]]
**[[itscassie]]
**[[breeiswaiting]]
**[[cassieresurrection]]
**[[frankiswaking]]
**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
*[[Deemontreal]]
*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
*[[The Flock]]
*[[Fourthface]]
*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
*[[HOOBS]]
*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
*[[Immant]]
*[[Iris2009]]
*[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]
*[[Itscassie]]
*[[Kelseygirl15]]
*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
*[[Lonelydude15]]
*[[lonelygirl362436]]
*[[LonelyJew15]]
*[[LonesomeOctober]]
*[[LordGreystoke422]]
*[[Maccaboy17]]
*[[Maddison Atkins]]
*[[Marbella]]
*[[Masonishappy]]
*[[MessyNessy89]]
*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
*[[MsBlackBetty]]
*[[N3ural N3t]]
*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
*[[OpAphid]]
*[[OpScorn]]
*[[Paulmark18]]
*[[ProjectStatic]]
*[[Redearth88]]
*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
*[[StormFaction]]
*[[Scdgoofy]]
*[[Tannhaus]]
*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
*[[Xeniph]]

==Suggested Tiers==
:''Please see [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]]. Do not edit that page, though.''

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Schedule==
Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.

'''As of Tuesday, April 1st, 2008, 03:26 GMT, Phase {{color|red|2}} of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running.''' See below for details.

*The Revamp will proceed as follows
**{{color|green|'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.}}
**{{color|red|'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.}}
**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].

===Page-list===
*Central portal
*List of videos
*Templates:
**Bottom index
**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
*Character pages
*Actor pages
*Categories to group it all together

==Flock Regulations==
The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page. 
Reasons for revocation can be:
*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

''NOTE: An extension will be granted for characters who have suddenly become canon. Obviously updating under these circumstances will take longer than normal.''

Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.

==Discussion==
====The Coalition====
They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
:I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
:#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
:#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
:#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
:Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
:(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
:(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
:::God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
:::::(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
:::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them. I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.
:::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88. RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in. The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.
:::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
:::::::# They have a forum presence.
:::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
:::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation) It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
:::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
:::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
:::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.

:::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth. My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump? But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page. If you can, more power to you. I look forward to the end result.

:::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured. I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure. There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?
:::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.
:::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.
:::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?
:::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.
:::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?
:::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.
:::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?
----
:::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.

:::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:
:::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
:::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
:::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
:::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.

:::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.
:::::::Just one.
:::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::Not proofread.

:::::::::<li>At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.
:::::::::<li>There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.
:::::::::<li>There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.
:::::::::<li>You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list.
:::::::::<li>I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.
::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}
::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.
::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}
::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}
::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}
::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.
::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.
::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.
::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.

::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?
::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.
:::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages. We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition. Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit. For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now. The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia. The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::::Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.
::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}
::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).
::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}
::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.
----
::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.
::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already! This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now. Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages. Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory". This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery. It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.
:::::::::As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.
:::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.

:::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.
:::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history. Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.
::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.

:::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Let us face reality here. Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site. It is going to take time to rebuild. That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:
#If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
#The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)

::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.
::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.
::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.
::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.
::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)
:::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia. In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem. Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration. I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level. Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series. Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''" I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole. From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4. I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)'' If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.

:::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness. So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series. One word, ''"Wha?"'') Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series. This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well). It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point. If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).

:::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over. If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole. For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.

:::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier. If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense. But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors). Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).
::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant. It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage." Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia? It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn. I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages. Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together. The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion. Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe. The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
:Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine. I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.

:Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).
:'''virginian:''' "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.
:Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?
:'''model:''' "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.
:Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:
:[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]
:Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.
:Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post. There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months. Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.
::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.
::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)

:::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.
:::::"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.

:::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.
:::::(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)

:::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)

:::::@model: {{quote|up there|The Coalition They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}
:::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth. All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened. If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so. Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.
:::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.
:::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)
::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence. I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic. Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.
::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.
::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?
::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:
::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are? If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question. The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on. No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure. That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning . The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.
:::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.
:::::::::::#We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
:::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on. Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site. It is clear from their video series. And they even have community video spin offs from within their series. I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5. So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck. So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?
:::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?

:::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.

:::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.
:::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.
:::::::iow, the discussion would be over.
:::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' "obvious", and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.
----
:::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.
:::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is.
:::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)
::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak. I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions. I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.
:::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.
:::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.
:::::::::::Now add one and one together.

:::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.
:::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.
:::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.
:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.
:::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.
:::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.
:::It's not gonna work.
:::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.
:::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.
:::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.
:::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.
:::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Actually to the contrary. As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here. I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''"[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution."'' from ''"It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."'' and ''"Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening."'' from ''"Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."''
:::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.
:::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:
::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.
::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.
::::''"project leader" here.'' --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.
::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' "just like [you] suggested".

:::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:
:::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''
:::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''
:::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''

:::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.
:::The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day ''before'' you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of ''"You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]"'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''"As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."''
:::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.
:::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.
:::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.
:::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy? It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:------|------]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry] [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:------|------]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself. Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)

:::::::Exactly that, model.
::::::::::::Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do ''not'' pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even ''I'' went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.
::::::::::::Don't do that again. Ever.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on [[Talk:437]], but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, '''never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia'''. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::OK, I agree I crossed the line that time. I am sorry and promise not to do that again. The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I got the PM I was waiting for, but it was not as clear as I hoped. Please stand by while this is sorted out.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

====Dreams from the Breeniverse====
Whether it is labeled 'tier 2' or 'tier 3' the page for this particular series should include a concise list of links to the videos, possibly with a short description and thumbnail for each. The videos are fairly independent creations usually focusing on one character each, not so much a single narrative, so a lumped summary will not really cover them very well. Also, linking just to the account the videos are provided on (jerrypwjr on YouTube) does not really work because they are mixed in with other videos by the same creator on that account. Note: there is a playlist available on that account for the Dreams series which could be linked to, but a listing on the page would make it easier to find an individual video. The lgpedia page should be as useful as possible. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:08, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

:Playlist, sure. (This can, and most likely will, be put under the External Links section.) Listing, maybe (I'm generally against any straight-out listing of videos, though.) As for pictures...Why? The dreams are chaotic, and it's not like one picture is going to give you an idea of what a particular video was about. Descriptions I'm against solely because the idea here is to cut down on content. Couldn't you give descriptions of the videos without just flat-out giving things the format of Here's What Happens in Video 1:, etc. etc.?
:BTW, Q, no one's checking this page anymore. The revamp is already in progress, and as you can see, the Dreams page needs work. It would be better to just go to it rather than saying what other people should do, you know? Thanks, though! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:54, 11 May 2008 (CDT)

::"''It would be better to just go to it rather than saying what other people should do, you know?''" ... Really? This whole revamp discourages contribution to the LGPedia by a larger group. You wiped out the attractive custom page Luminous had in place for the series, and now I should go add something new, only to have it deleted or piecemeal edited by your arbitrary standards?
::"''The idea here is to cut down on content.''" If anything, the idea should be to organize content and make it more accessible or possibly easier to maintain. But I personally think it is misguided to aim to "cut down on content" or to standardize everything. Actually, it's boring.
::The way this revamp is organized is misguided in my view. A much simpler solution would have been to list all the series, and then add a single summary page (akin to the video pages on the LGPedia) for every series, no matter how big or how small, with a single master "UGC Index" listing page that points to these individual summary pages.
::An indication of associated series (i.e. theCoalition) could be given in the "UGC Index." Then, for a given series, a list of links could be provided from the single summary page to all related pages, with little or no tight control over what those might be - let them be unique and a little chaotic and fun and as informative as possible. Add some organizing pages, and then let people work on revamping/improving the content pages on a series by series basis, that's sensible, but quit trying to control every little thing. It's ruining the spirit of the LGPedia and discourages community involvement. Fight the Order. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:30, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

==See also==
*Related discussions:
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]

{{UGCpages}}

Sneak Attack!

2008-05-11T05:34:09Z

QtheC: /* Transcript */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 479
| image = 0479-WheelsAreInMotion.JPG
| caption = Pursecam: Upgrade or Downgrade?
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|596}}
| forumid = 17335
| length = 4:05
| description = I'm speechless.
| location = [[Lonelygirl15 minor locations#Salinas Campaign Headquarters|Salinas Campaign Headquarters]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|order|salinas}}


| execprod = Miles Beckett and Greg Goodfried
| serprod = Amanda Goodfried
| pa = Jenni Powell
| directors = Marcello Daciano
| story = Tom Pettit and Jim Campolongo
| vidplay = Tom Pettit
| camera = Kevin Schlanser
| editor = Matt Vanselow
| music supervisor = Seth Jacobs

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Ross Thompson|Tom Pettit}}
{{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Elizabeth Avery|Melissa Kite}}

| Previous = Q & A With Jennie
| Next =

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
(''Jennie sitting at her desk in the Edward Salinas campaign office.'')

'''Jennie:''' So. I was up all night writing that brief for Mr. Thompson. When I told Jonas and Daniel, they got really worried, I mean, the plan was for me to work here and stay under the radar. Jonas is freaking out. But, I mean, this is an opportunity. The more that Thompson trusts me, the more
access I'll have to Salinas. I am worried though, and I haven't even gotten any feedback on my paper yet. I'm thinking I should just go, and not come back.

(''Jennie picks up a small "Fight The Order" poster/card, showing it to the camera.'')

'''Jennie:''' I've brought some of the posters and artwork that you guys have created, and before I go, I'm going to put one of these on every desk. I can't wait to see how Salinas reacts when his staff starts asking him questions about the Order.

(''Jennie puts the card down on the desk, and the camera cuts to a side view of her, as Mr. Thompson enters her office, knocking on the open door.'')

'''Jennie:''' Come in.

'''Ross:''' You are interesting.

'''Jennie:''' Um, was the brief okay?

'''Ross:''' No, it wasn't okay.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, why not?

'''Ross:''' Lisa, it was superb! ... I was blown away.

'''Jennie:''' Oh ... ah, I'm so glad.

'''Ross:''' I gave it to the Councilman, and he was blown away too. He called me himself this morning.

'''Jennie:''' Wow.

'''Ross:''' I think there could be a place in the campaign for you... healthcare, women's issues...

'''Jennie:''' Oh, um, wow.

'''Ross:''' I like you, I do. So, I booked us a table for tonight 8 o'clock.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, ... I have plans.

'''Ross:''' Cancel them.

'''Jennie:''' Ahhhh, I kind of have a boyfriend.

'''Ross:''' Ohhh, boyfriend. Alas. He's not invited.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, ummm.

(''Jonas arrives at the open door behind Thompson, knocks, and enters, shaking Thompson's hand.'')

'''Jonas:''' Hunh, I'm Bill.

'''Ross:''' Ross Thompson.

'''Jonas:''' Ross.

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, this, this is Bill.

'''Ross:''' You must be the boyfriend.

'''Jonas:''' Ummmmm, yeah. Kinda.

'''Ross:''' That's what I hear.

'''Jennie:''' Sooo. What are you doing here, Bill?

(''Thompson seems to be checking messages on his blackberry or cellphone.'')

'''Jonas:''' Oh, I came to bring you your lunch. It's tuna, your favorite... see how everything's going down here, wow, huh, this is awesome, this is (''Jonas pats Thompson a bit too firmly on the back.'') Salinas' headquarters where it all happens, huh, it's great ... really cool.

(''Jonas changes tone from his geek act to a little more serious, turning to Jennie.'')

'''Jonas:''' So, ah, how're you doing?

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, I'm great. (''taking hold of Jonas' elbow'') I'll just see you at home, okay?

'''Jonas:''' (''returning to geek mode'') Yeah sure, sure, I'll ya, I'll see you at home.

(''Jonas first starts to salute, then moves toward Jennie awkwardly and stumbles, knocking something to the ground, causing her to crack a smile.'')

'''Jonas:''' (something unintelligible) I didn't see that there.

(''Jonas recovers and puts a clipboard on the desk.'')

'''Jonas:''' Bye (''kissing Jennie on the cheek, then exiting to the doorway'').

'''Jennie:''' All right.

'''Ross:''' It was a pleasure, Bill.

'''Jennie:''' Bye honey.

'''Jonas:''' (''from the doorway'') Bye. (''mouths the question "honey?"'' and leaves)

(''Thompson and Jennie laugh a bit awkwardly.'')

'''Ross:''' Our table's at 8.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, yeah, I don't really know.

(''telephone rings'')

'''Ross:''' One second. (''answering phone'') Yeah? ... (''thumbs up to Jennie'') She's right in front of me... I will tell her. (''shuts phone'')

'''Ross:''' That was reception. Salinas wants to talk to you. It must be about the brief.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, when? Right now?

'''Ross:''' He's outside, waiting in a car. You can talk to him on the way to the airport.

'''Jennie:''' Oh. I I I don't really think that I would have anything to say...

'''Ross:''' Lisa, You can't keep him waiting! (''Thompson rises to leave.'')

(''Cut to Jennie alone.'')

'''Jennie:''' (''to self'') Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit... (''gets up and grabs camera'')

(''Cut to purse-cam view of a black SUV outside'')

'''Jennie:''' (''approaching the car, talking to self'') Okay, now or never. (''Jennie opens the car door with her left hand, holding a mace canister'')

(''The purse-cam shows Elizabeth Avery sitting in the back seat of the SUV.'')

'''Elizabeth:''' You won't be needing that. Please sit down. I need to talk to you. It's urgent.

'''Jennie:''' What are you doing here?

'''Elizabeth:''' Saving a life.

'''Jennie:''' I can handle myself, thanks.

'''Elizabeth:''' Not yours. Your friend Emma's.

'''Jennie:''' What?

'''Elizabeth:''' She's going to die.

'''Jennie:''' Why? How?

'''Elizabeth:''' The wheels are in motion. It's all set.

(''There is a clunk noise as if the door is opening again behind Jennie, then the purse-cam view moves suddenly away from Elizabeth Avery as Jonas pulls Jennie out of the SUV.'')

'''Jonas:''' Get out of the car! Get out of the car!

'''Jennie:''' Jonas... Jonas, wait!

'''Jonas:''' Right now!

(''sudden cut to black'')

==Notes==
*This is the first time Emma has been mentioned since [[Kick His A$S!!]].

Sneak Attack!

2008-05-11T05:21:46Z

QtheC: /* Transcript */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 479
| image = 0479-WheelsAreInMotion.JPG
| caption = Pursecam: Upgrade or Downgrade?
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|596}}
| forumid = 17335
| length = 4:05
| description = I'm speechless.
| location = [[Lonelygirl15 minor locations#Salinas Campaign Headquarters|Salinas Campaign Headquarters]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|order|salinas}}


| execprod = Miles Beckett and Greg Goodfried
| serprod = Amanda Goodfried
| pa = Jenni Powell
| directors = Marcello Daciano
| story = Tom Pettit and Jim Campolongo
| vidplay = Tom Pettit
| camera = Kevin Schlanser
| editor = Matt Vanselow
| music supervisor = Seth Jacobs

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Ross Thompson|Tom Pettit}}
{{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Elizabeth Avery|Melissa Kite}}

| Previous = Q & A With Jennie
| Next =

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
(''Jennie sitting at her desk in the Edward Salinas campaign office.'')

'''Jennie:''' So. I was up all night writing that brief for Mr. Thompson. When I told Jonas and Daniel, they got really worried, I mean, the plan was for me to work here and stay under the radar. Jonas is freaking out. But, I mean, this is an opportunity. The more that Thompson trusts me, the more
access I'll have to Salinas. I am worried though, and I haven't even gotten any feedback on my paper yet. I'm thinking I should just go, and not come back.

(''Jennie picks up a small "Fight The Order" poster/card, showing it to the camera.'')

'''Jennie:''' I've brought some of the posters and artwork that you guys have created, and before I go, I'm going to put one of these on every desk. I can't wait to see how Salinas reacts when his staff starts asking him questions about the Order.

(''Jennie puts the card down on the desk, and the camera cuts to a side view of her, as Mr. Thompson enters her office, knocking on the open door.'')

'''Jennie:''' Come in.

'''Ross:''' You are interesting.

'''Jennie:''' Um, was the brief okay?

'''Ross:''' No, it wasn't okay.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, why not?

'''Ross:''' Lisa, it was superb! ... I was blown away.

'''Jennie:''' Oh ... ah, I'm so glad.

'''Ross:''' I gave it to the Councilman, and he was blown away too. He called me himself this morning.

'''Jennie:''' Wow.

'''Ross:''' I think there could be a place in the campaign for you... healthcare, women's issues...

'''Jennie:''' Oh, um, wow.

'''Ross:''' I like you, I do. So, I booked us a table for tonight 8 o'clock.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, I have plans.

'''Ross:''' Cancel them.

'''Jennie:''' Ahhhh, I kind of have a boyfriend.

'''Ross:''' Ohhh, boyfriend. Alas. He's not invited.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, ummm.

(''Jonas arrives at the open door behind Thompson, knocks, and enters, shaking Thompson's hand.'')

'''Jonas:''' Hunh, I'm Bill.

'''Ross:''' Ross Thompson.

'''Jonas:''' Ross.

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, this, this is Bill.

'''Ross:''' You must be the boyfriend.

'''Jonas:''' Ummmmm, yeah. Kinda.

'''Ross:''' That's what I hear.

'''Jennie:''' Sooo. What are you doing here, Bill?

(''Thompson seems to be checking messages on his blackberry or cellphone.'')

'''Jonas:''' Oh, I came to bring you your lunch. It's tuna, your favorite... see how everything's going down here, wow, huh, this is awesome, this is (''Jonas pats Thompson a bit too firmly on the back.'') Salinas' headquarters where it all happens, huh, it's great ... really cool.

(''Jonas changes tone from his geek act to a little more serious, turning to Jennie.'')

'''Jonas:''' So, ah, how're you doing?

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, I'm great. (''taking hold of Jonas' elbow'') I'll just see you at home, okay?

'''Jonas:''' (''returning to geek mode'') Yeah sure, sure, I'll ya, I'll see you at home.

(''Jonas first starts to salute, then moves toward Jennie awkwardly and stumbles, knocking something to the ground, causing her to crack a smile.

'''Jonas:''' (something unintelligible) I didn't see that there.

(''Jonas recovers and puts a clipboard on the desk.'')

'''Jonas:''' Bye (''kissing Jennie on the cheek, then exiting'').

'''Jennie:''' All right.

'''Ross:''' It was a pleasure, Bill.

'''Jennie:''' Bye honey.

'''Jonas:''' (''from the doorway'') Bye. (''mouths the question "honey?"'' and leaves)

(''Thompson and Jennie laugh a bit awkwardly.'')

'''Ross:''' Our table's at 8.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, yeah, I don't really know.

(''telephone rings'')

'''Ross:''' One second. (''answering phone'') Yeah? ... (''thumbs up to Jennie'') She's right in front of me... I will tell her. (''shuts phone'')

'''Ross:''' That was reception. Salinas wants to talk to you. It must be about the brief.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, when? Right now?

'''Ross:''' He's outside, waiting in a car. You can talk to him on the way to the airport.

'''Jennie:''' Oh. I I I don't really think that I would have anything to say...

'''Ross:''' Lisa, You can't keep him waiting! (''Thompson rises to leave.'')

(''Cut to Jennie alone.'')

'''Jennie:''' (''to self'') Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit... (''gets up and grabs camera'')

(''cut to purse-cam view of a black SUV outside'')

'''Jennie:''' (''approaching the car, talking to self'') Okay, now or never. (''Jennie opens the car door with her left hand, holding a mace canister'')

(''The purse-cam shows Elizabeth Avery sitting in the back seat of the SUV.'')

'''Elizabeth:''' You won't be needing that. Please sit down. I need to talk to you. It's urgent.

'''Jennie:''' What are you doing here?

'''Elizabeth:''' Saving a life.

'''Jennie:''' I can handle myself, thanks.

'''Elizabeth:''' Not yours. Your friend Emma's.

'''Jennie:''' What?

'''Elizabeth:''' She's going to die.

'''Jennie:''' Why? How?

'''Elizabeth:''' The wheels are in motion. It's all set.

(''There is a clunk noise as if the door is opening again behind Jennie, then the purse-cam view moves suddenly away from Elizabeth Avery as Jonas pulls Jennie out of the SUV.'')

'''Jonas:''' Get out of the car! Get out of the car!

'''Jennie:''' Jonas... Jonas, wait!

'''Jonas:''' Right now!

(''sudden cut to black'')

==Notes==
*This is the first time Emma has been mentioned since [[Kick His A$S!!]].

Sneak Attack!

2008-05-11T05:14:15Z

QtheC: /* Transcript */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 479
| image = 0479-WheelsAreInMotion.JPG
| caption = Pursecam: Upgrade or Downgrade?
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|596}}
| forumid = 17335
| length = 4:05
| description = I'm speechless.
| location = [[Lonelygirl15 minor locations#Salinas Campaign Headquarters|Salinas Campaign Headquarters]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|order|salinas}}


| execprod = Miles Beckett and Greg Goodfried
| serprod = Amanda Goodfried
| pa = Jenni Powell
| directors = Marcello Daciano
| story = Tom Pettit and Jim Campolongo
| vidplay = Tom Pettit
| camera = Kevin Schlanser
| editor = Matt Vanselow
| music supervisor = Seth Jacobs

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Ross Thompson|Tom Pettit}}
{{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Elizabeth Avery|Melissa Kite}}

| Previous = Q & A With Jennie
| Next =

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
(''Jennie sitting on her desk in the Edward Salinas campaign office.'')

'''Jennie:''' So. I was up all night writing that brief for Mr. Thompson. When I told Jonas and Daniel, they got really worried, I mean, the plan was for me to work here and stay under the radar. Jonas is freaking out. But, I mean, this is an opportunity. The more that Thompson trusts me, the more
access I'll have to Salinas. I am worried though, and I haven't even gotten any feedback on my paper yet. I'm thinking I should just go, and not come back.

(''Jennie picks up a small "Fight The Order" poster/card, showing it to the camera.'')

'''Jennie:''' I've brought some of the posters and artwork that you guys have created, and before I go, I'm going to put one of these on every desk. I can't wait to see how Salinas reacts when his staff starts asking him questions about the Order.

(''Jennie puts the card down on the desk, and the camera cuts to a side view of her, as Mr. Thompson enters her office, knocking on the open door.'')

'''Jennie:''' Come in.

'''Ross:''' You are interesting.

'''Jennie:''' Um, was the brief okay?

'''Ross:''' No, it wasn't okay.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, why not?

'''Ross:''' Lisa, it was superb! ... I was blown away.

'''Jennie:''' Oh ... ah, I'm so glad.

'''Ross:''' I gave it to the Councilman, and he was blown away too. He called me himself this morning.

'''Jennie:''' Wow.

'''Ross:''' I think there could be a place in the campaign for you... healthcare, women's issues...

'''Jennie:''' Oh, um, wow.

'''Ross:''' I like you, I do. So, I booked us a table for tonight 8 o'clock.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, I have plans.

'''Ross:''' Cancel them.

'''Jennie:''' Ahhhh, I kind of have a boyfriend.

'''Ross:''' Ohhh, boyfriend. Alas. He's not invited.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, ummm.

(''Jonas arrives at the open door behind Thompson, knocks, and enters, shaking Thompson's hand.'')

'''Jonas:''' Hunh, I'm Bill.

'''Ross:''' Ross Thompson.

'''Jonas:''' Ross.

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, this, this is Bill.

'''Ross:''' You must be the boyfriend.

'''Jonas:''' Ummmmm, yeah. Kinda.

'''Ross:''' That's what I hear.

'''Jennie:''' Sooo. What are you doing here, Bill?

(''Thompson seems to be checking messages on his blackberry or cellphone.'')

'''Jonas:''' Oh, I came to bring you your lunch. It's tuna, your favorite... see how everything's going down here, wow, huh, this is awesome, this is (''Jonas pats Thompson a bit too firmly on the back.'') Salinas' headquarters where it all happens, huh, it's great ... really cool.

(''Jonas changes tone from his geek act to a little more serious, turning to Jennie.'')

'''Jonas:''' So, ah, how're you doing?

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, I'm great. (''taking hold of Jonas' elbow'') I'll just see you at home, okay?

'''Jonas:''' (''returning to geek mode'') Yeah sure, sure, I'll ya, I'll see you at home.

(''Jonas first starts to salute, then moves toward Jennie awkwardly and stumbles, knocking something to the ground, causing her to crack a smile.

'''Jonas:''' (something unintelligible) I didn't see that there.

(''Jonas recovers and puts a clipboard on the desk.'')

'''Jonas:''' Bye (''kissing Jennie on the cheek, then exiting'').

'''Jennie:''' All right.

'''Ross:''' It was a pleasure, Bill.

'''Jennie:''' Bye honey.

'''Jonas:''' (''from the doorway'') Bye. (''mouths the question "honey?"'' and leaves)

(''Thompson and Jennie laugh a bit awkwardly.'')

'''Ross:''' Our table's at 8.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, yeah, I don't really know.

(''telephone rings'')

'''Ross:''' One second. (''answering phone'') Yeah? ... (''thumbs up to Jennie'') She's right in front of me... I will tell her. (''shuts phone'')

'''Ross:''' That was reception. Salinas wants to talk to you. It must be about the brief.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, when? Right now?

'''Ross:''' He's outside, waiting in a car. You can talk to him on the way to the airport.

'''Jennie:''' Oh. I I I don't really think that I would have anything to say...

'''Ross:''' Lisa, You can't keep him waiting! (''Thompson rises to leave.'')

(''Cut to Jennie alone.'')

'''Jennie:''' (''to self'') Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit... (''gets up and grabs camera'')

(''cut to purse-cam view of a black SUV outside'')

'''Jennie:''' (''approaching the car, talking to self'') Okay, now or never. (''Jennie opens the car door with her left hand, holding a mace canister'')

(''The purse-cam shows Elizabeth Avery sitting in the back seat of the SUV.'')

'''Elizabeth:''' You won't be needing that. Please sit down. I need to talk to you. It's urgent.

'''Jennie:''' What are you doing here?

'''Elizabeth:''' Saving a life.

'''Jennie:''' I can handle myself, thanks.

'''Elizabeth:''' Not yours. Your friend Emma's.

'''Jennie:''' What?

'''Elizabeth:''' She's going to die.

'''Jennie:''' Why? How?

'''Elizabeth:''' The wheels are in motion. It's all set.

(''There is a clunk noise as if the door is opening again behind Jennie, then the purse-cam view moves suddenly away from Elizabeth Avery as Jonas pulls Jennie out of the SUV.'')

'''Jonas:''' Get out of the car! Get out of the car!

'''Jennie:''' Jonas... Jonas, wait!

'''Jonas:''' Right now!

(''sudden cut to black'')

==Notes==
*This is the first time Emma has been mentioned since [[Kick His A$S!!]].

Sneak Attack!

2008-05-11T04:51:29Z

QtheC: /* Transcript */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 479
| image = 0479-WheelsAreInMotion.JPG
| caption = Pursecam: Upgrade or Downgrade?
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|596}}
| forumid = 17335
| length = 4:05
| description = I'm speechless.
| location = [[Lonelygirl15 minor locations#Salinas Campaign Headquarters|Salinas Campaign Headquarters]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|order|salinas}}


| execprod = Miles Beckett and Greg Goodfried
| serprod = Amanda Goodfried
| pa = Jenni Powell
| directors = Marcello Daciano
| story = Tom Pettit and Jim Campolongo
| vidplay = Tom Pettit
| camera = Kevin Schlanser
| editor = Matt Vanselow
| music supervisor = Seth Jacobs

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Ross Thompson|Tom Pettit}}
{{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Elizabeth Avery|Melissa Kite}}

| Previous = Q & A With Jennie
| Next =

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
(''Jennie sitting on her desk in the Edward Salinas campaign office.'')

'''Jennie:''' So. I was up all night writing that brief for Mr. Thompson. When I told Jonas and Daniel, they got really worried, I mean, the plan was for me to work here and stay under the radar. Jonas is freaking out. But, I mean, this is an opportunity. The more that Thompson trusts me, the more
access I'll have to Salinas. I am worried though, and I haven't even gotten any feedback on my paper yet. I'm thinking I should just go, and not come back.

(''Jennie picks up a small "Fight The Order" poster/card, showing it to the camera.'')

'''Jennie:''' I've brought some of the posters and artwork that you guys have created, and before I go, I'm going to put one of these on every desk. I can't wait to see how Salinas reacts when his staff starts asking him questions about the Order.

(''Jennie puts the card down on the desk, and the camera cuts to a side view of her, as Mr. Thompson enters her office, knocking on the open door.'')

'''Jennie:''' Come in.

'''Ross:''' You are interesting.

'''Jennie:''' Um, was the brief okay?

'''Ross:''' No, it wasn't okay.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, why not?

'''Ross:''' Lisa, it was superb! ... I was blown away.

'''Jennie:''' Oh ... ah, I'm so glad.

'''Ross:''' I gave it to the Councilman, and he was blown away too. He called me himself this morning.

'''Jennie:''' Wow.

'''Ross:''' I think there could be a place in the campaign for you... healthcare, women's issues...

'''Jennie:''' Oh, um, wow.

'''Ross:''' I like you, I do. So, I booked us a table for tonight 8 o'clock.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, I have plans.

'''Ross:''' Cancel them.

'''Jennie:''' Ahhhh, I kind of have a boyfriend.

'''Ross:''' Ohhh, boyfriend. Alas. He's not invited.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, ummm.

(''Jonas arrives at the open door behind Thompson, knocks, and enters, shaking Thompson's hand.'')

'''Jonas:''' Hunh, I'm Bill.

'''Ross:''' Ross Thompson.

'''Jonas:''' Ross.

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, this, this is Bill.

'''Ross:''' You must be the boyfriend.

'''Jonas:''' Ummmmm, yeah. Kinda.

'''Ross:''' That's what I hear.

'''Jennie:''' Sooo. What are you doing here, Bill?

(''Thompson seems to be checking messages on his blackberry or cellphone.'')

'''Jonas:''' Oh, I came to bring you your lunch. It's tuna, your favorite... see how everything's going down here, wow, huh, this is awesome, this is (''Jonas pats Thompson a bit too firmly on the back.'') Salinas' headquarters where it all happens, huh, it's great ... really cool.

(''Jonas changes tone from his geek act to a little more serious, turning to Jennie.'')

'''Jonas:''' So, ah, how're you doing?

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, I'm great. (''taking hold of Jonas' elbow'') I'll just see you at home, okay?

'''Jonas:''' (''returning to geek mode'') Yeah sure, sure, I'll ya, I'll see you at home.

(''Jonas first starts to salute, then moves toward Jennie awkwardly and stumbles, knocking something to the ground, causing her to crack a smile.

'''Jonas:''' (something unintelligible) I didn't see that there.

(''Jonas recovers and puts a clipboard on the desk.'')

'''Jonas:''' Bye (''kissing Jennie on the cheek, then exiting'').

'''Jennie:''' All right.

'''Ross:''' It was a pleasure, Bill.

'''Jennie:''' Bye honey.

'''Jonas:''' (''from the doorway'') Bye. (''mouths the question "honey?"'' and leaves)

(''Thompson and Jennie laugh a bit awkwardly.'')

'''Ross:''' Our table's at 8.

'''Jennie:''' Oh, yeah, I don't really know.

(''telephone rings'')

'''Ross:''' One second. (''answering phone'') Yeah? ... (''thumbs up to Jennie'') She's right in front of me... I will tell her. (''shuts phone'')

'''Ross:''' That was reception. Salinas wants to talk to you. It must be about the brief.

'''Jennie:''' Oh

{{transcript incomplete}}

==Notes==
*This is the first time Emma has been mentioned since [[Kick His A$S!!]].

Q & A With Jennie

2008-05-11T03:42:08Z

QtheC: /* References */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 478
| image = JennieQA.JPG
| caption = What a shocker!
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|595}}
| forumid =
| length = 4:48
| description = I tried answering your questions yesterday before I went to the campaign office. I've been so busy this is my first chance to upload them. Ok back to work!
| location = [[The rented house]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|plantcake}}


| execprod =
| serprod =
| pa =
| directors =
| story =
| vidplay =
| camera =
| editor =
| music supervisor =

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}

| Previous = Satan's HQ
| Next = Sneak Attack!

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
'''Jennie:''' Hi everyone. I just wanna say thank you so much to everyone who called in and left me messages on Snapvine. It really means a lot to me. And it was also really cool to hear your voices, um, instead of just, you know, reading your comments on the forums, so. I'm gonna do my best to answer all of your questions and I hope that I don't bore you. Let's get to it.

(''Cut to Jennie sitting on her bed with a laptop on her lap. Various voice clips of fans play.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie, this is Suze. Here are some things I've always wondered about you<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>... I just wanna tell you to be safe and be careful while going undercover<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy)</ref>... Think really hard about a fake name to use<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206528 Just a warning] (Laney?)</ref>... You're kind of a mystery woman<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie lying on the bed. Voice clips of fans play on.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie. Um, I just wanna say, uh, that I trust you 100%<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley)</ref>... Like you, [[Edward Salinas]] has had enough. It's time for change<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209716 Edward Salinas For Congress!] (JamesBlundell)</ref>... All of the Sanctuary Nation would like to wish you the best of luck in infiltrating the house of Salinas. Courage, Madame Bear, the chaos will burn<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19208837 Transmission from the Sanctuary Nation], (anon)</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop.'')

'''Jennie:''' Okay, so a lot of you asked questions about my background and just wanted to know more about me and stuff. Suze called me a "''mystery woman''". I'm from the mid-west, I grew up in Indiana, I was an only child, but I wasn't like, spoiled or anything. Actually, my mom passed away when I was still pretty young so it was mainly just me and my dad growing up. We were really close. He's amazing. He was an attorney and he worked really hard for underprivileged people, giving a voice to people who didn't have one. He got sick in my freshman year of high school and, um, he passed away too, so, I went to live with my grandparents after that. If I seem mysterious, it's just because I'm still working out who I'm gonna be.

(''Cut to a close up on Jennie.'')

'''Jennie:''' Hayley, Maddy, Annie!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206375 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> You guys, thank you for your support. Unlike some people, you know I'm not a plantcake, and I appreciate that.

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop again.'')

'''Jennie:''' [[User:Neavers|Neavers]] and some other people were wondering how I wasn't gonna be recognised in the campaign office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203903 Serious Flaw] (anon), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203956 Hey!] (melisa), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203990 Hi] (Neavers), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204410 The Inside Job] (Judasbeast?)</ref> Um, typically with a campaign like this and a candidate of this stature, they don't really spend a lot of time in the office. I actually don't expect to see Salinas around much, if at all. [[User:QtheC|QtheC]]! You asked if I'd ever thought about running for political office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 Ever thought about running for political office?] (QtheC)</ref> Yeah, I've always seen myself in a position where I'm serving others, so politics is definitely something that's not out of the question but it's not really something I'm thinking about right now. I hope that answered the question. Some of you have been wondering if I'm gonna be using a fake name while I'm there. Yes, I am. My name is going to be Lisa Goodwin. ''Shhh''! No, seriously, though. My M.O. here is gonna be to keep a low profile, just stay to the back and not do anything to draw any attention to myself. Stonedog, look, I'm sorry if some of this stuff "''sticks in your craw'',"<ref>Reference needed - audio comment removed? (Stonedog)</ref> whatever that means, but look, I'm not a plant. I care about these people and I've been nothing but loyal. I wanna de-rail Salinas and help my friends. A lot of you wanted to know what we did while [[Jonas]] was in London.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19202925 A quick question] (christoph), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206424 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> Well, we worried. We were really upset at first but, y'know... in the, in the end we just wanted him to come home. Yeah, I was [[Four-letter words| pissed]] that he got into the tub with that girl. I mean it was so childish. I just... He's not off the hook yet.

(''Cut to several shots of Jennie with the laptop. More voice clips play.'')

'''Fan:''' This is Emily, also known as xxEmilyxx from the LG15 website. I think that you should definitely bring a camera with you for proof of what you hear and see and also for safety reasons too.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209228 Bring a camera!] (xxEmilyxx)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, totally. Thanks Emily. Done.

'''Fan:''' Hey Jennie, it's PinkTigger. Um, basically you're my favorite out of the group...

'''Jennie:''' Thank you.

'''Fan:''' (''PinkTigger'') ...so I wanted to wish you good luck and I was just wondering what you were planning on doing once you go undercover. Like, are you just looking for information? Are you planning an attack? And what would happen if you got caught? (''Jennie grimaces'') So, um, don't forget the mace and be careful. Bye!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19205337 Good Luck! =D] (PinkTigger)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Oh, wow, I hope I don't get caught. (''Laughs'') Thank you for the good luck. Uh, I have that mace. I don't wanna use it, but I'm prepared to if I have to I guess.

(''Cut to Jennie looking at her laptop with her head on her fist'')

'''Fan:''' So I have some kind of personal questions that probably aren't related to whether or not you're a plantcake at all, but I was wondering about Jonas cause you haven't really opened up too much about your feelings with him. I mean, many people are curious to know and I'm going to be the one to ask, obviously. Have you two slept together? (''Jennie looks shocked and covers her mouth'') So, good luck with everything and be safe and keep straightening your hair. It looks nice. Bye.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206725 Jonas] (justanotherlonelygirl)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' (''Fiddles with her hair'') Yeah, I'll try to straighten my hair some more. (''Nods'')

==Notes==
*This is the first video of the third season not to be posted on the lonelygirl15 account.

==References==
Fan audio clips were recorded on Jennie's Snapvine account: [http://www.snapvine.com/JennietheBear JennietheBear].
{{reflist}}

Q & A With Jennie

2008-05-11T03:38:16Z

QtheC: /* References List */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 478
| image = JennieQA.JPG
| caption = What a shocker!
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|595}}
| forumid =
| length = 4:48
| description = I tried answering your questions yesterday before I went to the campaign office. I've been so busy this is my first chance to upload them. Ok back to work!
| location = [[The rented house]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|plantcake}}


| execprod =
| serprod =
| pa =
| directors =
| story =
| vidplay =
| camera =
| editor =
| music supervisor =

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}

| Previous = Satan's HQ
| Next = Sneak Attack!

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
'''Jennie:''' Hi everyone. I just wanna say thank you so much to everyone who called in and left me messages on Snapvine. It really means a lot to me. And it was also really cool to hear your voices, um, instead of just, you know, reading your comments on the forums, so. I'm gonna do my best to answer all of your questions and I hope that I don't bore you. Let's get to it.

(''Cut to Jennie sitting on her bed with a laptop on her lap. Various voice clips of fans play.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie, this is Suze. Here are some things I've always wondered about you<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>... I just wanna tell you to be safe and be careful while going undercover<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy)</ref>... Think really hard about a fake name to use<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206528 Just a warning] (Laney?)</ref>... You're kind of a mystery woman<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie lying on the bed. Voice clips of fans play on.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie. Um, I just wanna say, uh, that I trust you 100%<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley)</ref>... Like you, [[Edward Salinas]] has had enough. It's time for change<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209716 Edward Salinas For Congress!] (JamesBlundell)</ref>... All of the Sanctuary Nation would like to wish you the best of luck in infiltrating the house of Salinas. Courage, Madame Bear, the chaos will burn<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19208837 Transmission from the Sanctuary Nation], (anon)</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop.'')

'''Jennie:''' Okay, so a lot of you asked questions about my background and just wanted to know more about me and stuff. Suze called me a "''mystery woman''". I'm from the mid-west, I grew up in Indiana, I was an only child, but I wasn't like, spoiled or anything. Actually, my mom passed away when I was still pretty young so it was mainly just me and my dad growing up. We were really close. He's amazing. He was an attorney and he worked really hard for underprivileged people, giving a voice to people who didn't have one. He got sick in my freshman year of high school and, um, he passed away too, so, I went to live with my grandparents after that. If I seem mysterious, it's just because I'm still working out who I'm gonna be.

(''Cut to a close up on Jennie.'')

'''Jennie:''' Hayley, Maddy, Annie!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206375 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> You guys, thank you for your support. Unlike some people, you know I'm not a plantcake, and I appreciate that.

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop again.'')

'''Jennie:''' [[User:Neavers|Neavers]] and some other people were wondering how I wasn't gonna be recognised in the campaign office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203903 Serious Flaw] (anon), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203956 Hey!] (melisa), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203990 Hi] (Neavers), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204410 The Inside Job] (Judasbeast?)</ref> Um, typically with a campaign like this and a candidate of this stature, they don't really spend a lot of time in the office. I actually don't expect to see Salinas around much, if at all. [[User:QtheC|QtheC]]! You asked if I'd ever thought about running for political office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 Ever thought about running for political office?] (QtheC)</ref> Yeah, I've always seen myself in a position where I'm serving others, so politics is definitely something that's not out of the question but it's not really something I'm thinking about right now. I hope that answered the question. Some of you have been wondering if I'm gonna be using a fake name while I'm there. Yes, I am. My name is going to be Lisa Goodwin. ''Shhh''! No, seriously, though. My M.O. here is gonna be to keep a low profile, just stay to the back and not do anything to draw any attention to myself. Stonedog, look, I'm sorry if some of this stuff "''sticks in your craw'',"<ref>Reference needed - audio comment removed? (Stonedog)</ref> whatever that means, but look, I'm not a plant. I care about these people and I've been nothing but loyal. I wanna de-rail Salinas and help my friends. A lot of you wanted to know what we did while [[Jonas]] was in London.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19202925 A quick question] (christoph), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206424 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> Well, we worried. We were really upset at first but, y'know... in the, in the end we just wanted him to come home. Yeah, I was [[Four-letter words| pissed]] that he got into the tub with that girl. I mean it was so childish. I just... He's not off the hook yet.

(''Cut to several shots of Jennie with the laptop. More voice clips play.'')

'''Fan:''' This is Emily, also known as xxEmilyxx from the LG15 website. I think that you should definitely bring a camera with you for proof of what you hear and see and also for safety reasons too.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209228 Bring a camera!] (xxEmilyxx)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, totally. Thanks Emily. Done.

'''Fan:''' Hey Jennie, it's PinkTigger. Um, basically you're my favorite out of the group...

'''Jennie:''' Thank you.

'''Fan:''' (''PinkTigger'') ...so I wanted to wish you good luck and I was just wondering what you were planning on doing once you go undercover. Like, are you just looking for information? Are you planning an attack? And what would happen if you got caught? (''Jennie grimaces'') So, um, don't forget the mace and be careful. Bye!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19205337 Good Luck! =D] (PinkTigger)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Oh, wow, I hope I don't get caught. (''Laughs'') Thank you for the good luck. Uh, I have that mace. I don't wanna use it, but I'm prepared to if I have to I guess.

(''Cut to Jennie looking at her laptop with her head on her fist'')

'''Fan:''' So I have some kind of personal questions that probably aren't related to whether or not you're a plantcake at all, but I was wondering about Jonas cause you haven't really opened up too much about your feelings with him. I mean, many people are curious to know and I'm going to be the one to ask, obviously. Have you two slept together? (''Jennie looks shocked and covers her mouth'') So, good luck with everything and be safe and keep straightening your hair. It looks nice. Bye.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206725 Jonas] (justanotherlonelygirl)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' (''Fiddles with her hair'') Yeah, I'll try to straighten my hair some more. (''Nods'')

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Notes==
*This is the first video of the third season not to be posted on the lonelygirl15 account.

Q & A With Jennie

2008-05-11T03:29:20Z

QtheC: /* Transcript */ fan references

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 478
| image = JennieQA.JPG
| caption = What a shocker!
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080509
| url = {{lg15|595}}
| forumid =
| length = 4:48
| description = I tried answering your questions yesterday before I went to the campaign office. I've been so busy this is my first chance to upload them. Ok back to work!
| location = [[The rented house]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|jennie|plantcake}}


| execprod =
| serprod =
| pa =
| directors =
| story =
| vidplay =
| camera =
| editor =
| music supervisor =

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jennie}}

| Previous = Satan's HQ
| Next = Sneak Attack!

| PreviousB =
| NextB =

| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
==Transcript==
'''Jennie:''' Hi everyone. I just wanna say thank you so much to everyone who called in and left me messages on Snapvine. It really means a lot to me. And it was also really cool to hear your voices, um, instead of just, you know, reading your comments on the forums, so. I'm gonna do my best to answer all of your questions and I hope that I don't bore you. Let's get to it.

(''Cut to Jennie sitting on her bed with a laptop on her lap. Various voice clips of fans play.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie, this is Suze. Here are some things I've always wondered about you<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>... I just wanna tell you to be safe and be careful while going undercover<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy)</ref>... Think really hard about a fake name to use<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206528 Just a warning] (Laney?)</ref>... You're kind of a mystery woman<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206095 Question] (Suze)</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie lying on the bed. Voice clips of fans play on.'')

'''Fans:''' Hi Jennie. Um, I just wanna say, uh, that I trust you 100%<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley)</ref>... Like you, [[Edward Salinas]] has had enough. It's time for change<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209716 Edward Salinas For Congress!] (JamesBlundell)</ref>... All of the Sanctuary Nation would like to wish you the best of luck in infiltrating the house of Salinas. Courage, Madame Bear, the chaos will burn<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19208837 Transmission from the Sanctuary Nation]</ref>...

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop.'')

'''Jennie:''' Okay, so a lot of you asked questions about my background and just wanted to know more about me and stuff. Suze called me a "''mystery woman''". I'm from the mid-west, I grew up in Indiana, I was an only child, but I wasn't like, spoiled or anything. Actually, my mom passed away when I was still pretty young so it was mainly just me and my dad growing up. We were really close. He's amazing. He was an attorney and he worked really hard for underprivileged people, giving a voice to people who didn't have one. He got sick in my freshman year of high school and, um, he passed away too, so, I went to live with my grandparents after that. If I seem mysterious, it's just because I'm still working out who I'm gonna be.

(''Cut to a close up on Jennie.'')

'''Jennie:''' Hayley, Maddy, Annie!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203540 Good luck] (Hayley), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19207182 Be Safe] (Maddy), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206375 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> You guys, thank you for your support. Unlike some people, you know I'm not a plantcake, and I appreciate that.

(''Cut to Jennie at the laptop again.'')

'''Jennie:''' [[User:Neavers|Neavers]] and some other people were wondering how I wasn't gonna be recognised in the campaign office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203903 Serious Flaw], [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203956 Hey!] (melisa), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19203990 Hi] (Neavers), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204410 The Inside Job] (Judasbeast?)</ref> Um, typically with a campaign like this and a candidate of this stature, they don't really spend a lot of time in the office. I actually don't expect to see Salinas around much, if at all. [[User:QtheC|QtheC]]! You asked if I'd ever thought about running for political office.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 Ever thought about running for political office?] (QtheC)</ref> Yeah, I've always seen myself in a position where I'm serving others, so politics is definitely something that's not out of the question but it's not really something I'm thinking about right now. I hope that answered the question. Some of you have been wondering if I'm gonna be using a fake name while I'm there. Yes, I am. My name is going to be Lisa Goodwin. ''Shhh''! No, seriously, though. My M.O. here is gonna be to keep a low profile, just stay to the back and not do anything to draw any attention to myself. Stonedog, look, I'm sorry if some of this stuff "''sticks in your craw'',"<ref>reference needed - audio comment removed? (Stonedog)</ref> whatever that means, but look, I'm not a plant. I care about these people and I've been nothing but loyal. I wanna de-rail Salinas and help my friends. A lot of you wanted to know what we did while [[Jonas]] was in London.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19202925 A quick question] (christoph), [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206424 Voice Comment by phone] (Annie)</ref> Well, we worried. We were really upset at first but, y'know... in the, in the end we just wanted him to come home. Yeah, I was [[Four-letter words| pissed]] that he got into the tub with that girl. I mean it was so childish. I just... He's not off the hook yet.

(''Cut to several shots of Jennie with the laptop. More voice clips play.'')

'''Fan:''' This is Emily, also known as xxEmilyxx from the LG15 website. I think that you should definitely bring a camera with you for proof of what you hear and see and also for safety reasons too.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19209228 Bring a camera!] (xxEmilyxx)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Yeah, totally. Thanks Emily. Done.

'''Fan:''' Hey Jennie, it's PinkTigger. Um, basically you're my favorite out of the group...

'''Jennie:''' Thank you.

'''Fan:''' (''PinkTigger'') ...so I wanted to wish you good luck and I was just wondering what you were planning on doing once you go undercover. Like, are you just looking for information? Are you planning an attack? And what would happen if you got caught? (''Jennie grimaces'') So, um, don't forget the mace and be careful. Bye!<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19205337 Good Luck! =D] (PinkTigger)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' Oh, wow, I hope I don't get caught. (''Laughs'') Thank you for the good luck. Uh, I have that mace. I don't wanna use it, but I'm prepared to if I have to I guess.

(''Cut to Jennie looking at her laptop with her head on her fist'')

'''Fan:''' So I have some kind of personal questions that probably aren't related to whether or not you're a plantcake at all, but I was wondering about Jonas cause you haven't really opened up too much about your feelings with him. I mean, many people are curious to know and I'm going to be the one to ask, obviously. Have you two slept together? (''Jennie looks shocked and covers her mouth'') So, good luck with everything and be safe and keep straightening your hair. It looks nice. Bye.<ref>[http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19206725 Jonas] (justanotherlonelygirl)</ref>

'''Jennie:''' (''Fiddles with her hair'') Yeah, I'll try to straighten my hair some more. (''Nods'')

==Notes==
*This is the first video of the third season not to be posted on the lonelygirl15 account.

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-05-10T18:08:02Z

QtheC: Dreams video listing recommended

:'''''Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is currently in progress. Please do not initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation.''' Click [[#Schedule|here]] for further information on the process.''

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
*[[The 707 clique]]
*[[Aaronbeast]]
*[[Acrowleyorder]]
*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
*[[Breeiswaiting]]
*[[Brucker]]
*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
*[[Cassie UGC]]
**[[Cassieiswatching]]
**[[itscassie]]
**[[breeiswaiting]]
**[[cassieresurrection]]
**[[frankiswaking]]
**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
*[[Deemontreal]]
*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
*[[The Flock]]
*[[Fourthface]]
*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
*[[HOOBS]]
*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
*[[Immant]]
*[[Iris2009]]
*[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]
*[[Itscassie]]
*[[Kelseygirl15]]
*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
*[[Lonelydude15]]
*[[lonelygirl362436]]
*[[LonelyJew15]]
*[[LonesomeOctober]]
*[[LordGreystoke422]]
*[[Maccaboy17]]
*[[Maddison Atkins]]
*[[Marbella]]
*[[Masonishappy]]
*[[MessyNessy89]]
*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
*[[MsBlackBetty]]
*[[N3ural N3t]]
*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
*[[OpAphid]]
*[[OpScorn]]
*[[Paulmark18]]
*[[ProjectStatic]]
*[[Redearth88]]
*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
*[[StormFaction]]
*[[Scdgoofy]]
*[[Tannhaus]]
*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
*[[Xeniph]]

==Suggested Tiers==
:''Please see [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]]. Do not edit that page, though.''

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Schedule==
Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.

'''As of Tuesday, April 1st, 2008, 03:26 GMT, Phase {{color|red|2}} of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running.''' See below for details.

*The Revamp will proceed as follows
**{{color|green|'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.}}
**{{color|red|'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.}}
**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].

===Page-list===
*Central portal
*List of videos
*Templates:
**Bottom index
**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
*Character pages
*Actor pages
*Categories to group it all together

==Flock Regulations==
The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page. 
Reasons for revocation can be:
*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

''NOTE: An extension will be granted for characters who have suddenly become canon. Obviously updating under these circumstances will take longer than normal.''

Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.

==Discussion==
====The Coalition====
They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
:I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
:#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
:#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
:#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
:Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
:(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
:(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
:::God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
:::::(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
:::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them. I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.
:::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88. RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in. The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.
:::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
:::::::# They have a forum presence.
:::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
:::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation) It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
:::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
:::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
:::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.

:::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth. My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump? But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page. If you can, more power to you. I look forward to the end result.

:::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured. I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure. There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?
:::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.
:::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.
:::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?
:::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.
:::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?
:::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.
:::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?
----
:::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.

:::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:
:::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
:::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
:::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
:::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.

:::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.
:::::::Just one.
:::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::Not proofread.

:::::::::<li>At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.
:::::::::<li>There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.
:::::::::<li>There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.
:::::::::<li>You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list.
:::::::::<li>I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.
::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}
::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.
::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}
::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}
::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}
::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.
::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.
::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.
::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.

::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?
::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.
:::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages. We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition. Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit. For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now. The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia. The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::::Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.
::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}
::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).
::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}
::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.
----
::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.
::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already! This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now. Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages. Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory". This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery. It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.
:::::::::As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.
:::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.

:::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.
:::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history. Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.
::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.

:::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Let us face reality here. Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site. It is going to take time to rebuild. That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:
#If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
#The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)

::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.
::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.
::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.
::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.
::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)
:::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia. In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem. Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration. I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level. Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series. Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''" I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole. From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4. I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)'' If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.

:::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness. So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series. One word, ''"Wha?"'') Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series. This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well). It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point. If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).

:::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over. If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole. For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.

:::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier. If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense. But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors). Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).
::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant. It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage." Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia? It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn. I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages. Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together. The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion. Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe. The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
:Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine. I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.

:Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).
:'''virginian:''' "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.
:Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?
:'''model:''' "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.
:Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:
:[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]
:Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.
:Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post. There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months. Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.
::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.
::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)

:::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.
:::::"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.

:::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.
:::::(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)

:::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)

:::::@model: {{quote|up there|The Coalition They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}
:::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth. All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened. If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so. Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.
:::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.
:::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)
::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence. I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic. Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.
::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.
::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?
::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:
::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are? If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question. The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on. No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure. That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning . The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.
:::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.
:::::::::::#We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
:::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on. Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site. It is clear from their video series. And they even have community video spin offs from within their series. I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5. So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck. So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?
:::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?

:::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.

:::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.
:::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.
:::::::iow, the discussion would be over.
:::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' "obvious", and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.
----
:::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.
:::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is.
:::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)
::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak. I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions. I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.
:::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.
:::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.
:::::::::::Now add one and one together.

:::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.
:::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.
:::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.
:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.
:::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.
:::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.
:::It's not gonna work.
:::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.
:::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.
:::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.
:::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.
:::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Actually to the contrary. As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here. I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''"[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution."'' from ''"It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."'' and ''"Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening."'' from ''"Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."''
:::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.
:::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:
::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.
::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.
::::''"project leader" here.'' --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.
::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' "just like [you] suggested".

:::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:
:::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''
:::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''
:::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''

:::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.
:::The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day ''before'' you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of ''"You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]"'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''"As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."''
:::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.
:::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.
:::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.
:::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy? It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:------|------]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry] [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:------|------]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself. Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)

:::::::Exactly that, model.
::::::::::::Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do ''not'' pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even ''I'' went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.
::::::::::::Don't do that again. Ever.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on [[Talk:437]], but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, '''never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia'''. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::OK, I agree I crossed the line that time. I am sorry and promise not to do that again. The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I got the PM I was waiting for, but it was not as clear as I hoped. Please stand by while this is sorted out.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

====Dreams from the Breeniverse====
Whether it is labeled 'tier 2' or 'tier 3' the page for this particular series should include a concise list of links to the videos, possibly with a short description and thumbnail for each. The videos are fairly independent creations usually focusing on one character each, not so much a single narrative, so a lumped summary will not really cover them very well. Also, linking just to the account the videos are provided on (jerrypwjr on YouTube) does not really work because they are mixed in with other videos by the same creator on that account. Note: there is a playlist available on that account for the Dreams series which could be linked to, but a listing on the page would make it easier to find an individual video. The lgpedia page should be as useful as possible. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:08, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

==See also==
*Related discussions:
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]

{{UGCpages}}

User:QtheC

2008-05-10T05:19:28Z

QtheC: /* LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction */

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]] in April 2008.

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

== Other Mentions ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-05-10T05:15:37Z

QtheC: /* Other Mentions */

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]].

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

== Other Mentions ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/256471/question-13 Question #13] and [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-05-10T05:02:57Z

QtheC: June 5 chat with Greg

----
[[Image:QtheCAmbigramRect.JPG]]

== Experiments in Formatting ==
This is a paragraph of random text - for use in testing out formatting of various kinds at various times.<ref>This is a reference, just to see that the reflist template works.</ref><ref>This is another reference. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln Abraham Lincoln]'s Wikipedia page. </ref>

== LG15 Mentions / Fan Interaction ==
* June 5, 2007 - [[June 5 chat with Greg]] : During the group online chat with LG15 Creator [[Greg Goodfried]], QtheC randomly suggested, ''"I think Jonas should go on a trip around the world in search of his parents ... then he can play a role in Kate Modern."'' which though unnoticed at the time, partially came true when Jonas went to London to meet the Kate Modern characters starting with [[Escape to London]].

* October 27, 2007 - [[Is This The End?]] LG15 video description: ''Thanks qthec for solving that code in Emma's video. Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned . . . time is running out.''

* February 7, 2008 - [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/?p=511 Community Appreciation Week: Best Music Video (Acting For Pesos)]. This fan video, created by QtheC in April 2007 and honored on the main LG15.com site in February 2008, was based on the hypothetical question 'What were Bitsie Tulloch and Jackson Davis talking about down on that beach in Mexico during the filming of [[Hug It Out]]'?

* April 3, 2008 - [[Varsity Blues]] LG15 video description: ''Thank you all so much for helping us figure out that weird message from Bree's mom. We want to especially thank Fatal Gear, Lella, Hunnah, QtheC, and laurenannie who worked at the lg15.com forum decoding the message.''

* May 9, 2008 - [[Q & A With Jennie]] : Starting about 2:14 in the video, [[Jennie]] answers an audio question left by QtheC on her snapvine account, [http://www.snapvine.com/message/show/19204319 "Ever thought about running for political office?"]

== Other Mentions ==

* May 5, 2007 - [[Questions and Answers]] : [[Maddison Atkins]] producer [[Jeromy Barber]] answered video questions from fans, including [http://revver.com/video/258935/question-19 Question #19] from QtheC, asking whether Jeromy intended his work on Maddison Atkins to be a commentary on Lonelygirl15.

* July 20, 2007 - [[Awesomesauce]] : [[Marla]] includes QtheC in a list of shoutouts in this video, a part of the [[Redearth88/Prologue]].

== Trivia ==
* QtheC stands for QuinceTheCarpenter, and is a reference to the character [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Quince Peter Quince], a Carpenter, from Shakespeare's play [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream A Midsummer Night's Dream].
* QtheC's symbol (as shown above) is an [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambigram ambigram], meaning it can be read in it's normal orientation or upside-down.

== LGPedia ==
* [[Special:Contributions/QtheC|QtheC Contributions]]
* [[User_talk:QtheC|QtheC Talk]]
* [[LGPedia:Userboxes|Userboxes]], [[LGPedia:Userboxes/Fan|Fan Templates]]
{{Userbox LG15Today}}
{{Userbox 436}}

 

== Videos ==
* YouTube ([http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=imdjdan imdjdan]),
* Revver ([http://one.revver.com/find/user/QtheC QtheC])

== Miscellaneous ==
* [http://lg15today.blogspot.com LG15 Today Blog] ([http://lg15today.blogspot.com/search?q=QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.thecoalition.tv theCoalition] ([http://www.thecoalition.tv/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=118 QtheC])
* [http://forums.unfiction.com/forums Unfiction forum] ([http://www.google.com/custom?domains=forums.unfiction.com&q=QuinceTheCarpenter&sa=google+search&sitesearch=forums.unfiction.com&client=pub-6713851944563418&forid=1&channel=5403079049&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&flav=0000&sig=IqVAIsiHmY3E-PEo&cof=GALT%3A%23443344%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23B79067%3BVLC%3A330000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AECE6DA%3BLBGC%3AB5B1A6%3BALC%3A660000%3BLC%3A660000%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A990000%3BGIMP%3A990000%3BLH%3A48%3BLW%3A100%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.unfiction.com%2Fimage%2Fgoogle%2Flogo-search.png%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.unfiction.com%2F%3BLP%3A1%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en QuinceTheCarpenter])
* [http://www.flicksnshows.com/showthread.php?t=51146 FlicksNShows forum]
* [http://www.quarterlife.com Quarterlife] ([http://www.quarterlife.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.bebo.com Bebo] ([http://www.bebo.com/QtheC QtheC])
* [http://www.snapvine.com Snapvine] ([http://www.snapvine.com/profile/Ija0JhyGEd2U1QAwSFxxvg QtheC])
----
{{Userbox FanDate|January 2007}}
{{Userbox NBR}}
{{Userbox AlexIs...|...a "Robot", internet lingo for "Awesome Hot Aunt"}}
{{clr}}

== References ==
{{reflist}}

User:QtheC

2008-05-10T04:38:27Z

QtheC: /* Other Mentions */ Maddison Atkins Questions and Answers