LGPedia talk:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

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I'd like to lend my modest voice to the deletion of this dead project.Apo 01:53, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

Agreed. This project and it's pages should be held to the same standards it was trying to impose.--Immortal1 17:18, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

As I stated in the Deletion tag, I think the same logic with regards to fanfiction/user generated content that was so greatly discussed be applied here. It seems its chief architect abandoned the project, like many creators of content, leaving a rotting corpse. But unlike fanfiction which ADDED to the Pedia. This whole discussion has resulted in nothing but wasted time..and effort that could have gone into creating a much richer and broader reference material for this EXTENDED community of which we are all a part. Having been here from the EARLY days..I can tell you..this was intended to be about INCLUSIVITY and not Exclusivity. This whole project has done nothing to foster greater belonging..and it has done EVERYTHING it suggested that User Generated content did..Clutter the pedia..with half completed projects..spread out over multiple pages...a sprawl that almost no fanfiction could compete with. It also has resulted in the VERY unsightly creation of many tags and notes at the top of the pages...that pervade the Pedia..and encourage new editors to NOT post..because their work very well may be discard. So... Do I have any seconds? Seems I was seconded before I finished... --LordGreystoke422 01:59, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

If we spend more time discussing and defending how to organize content than producing quality content it seems counter productive. --modelmotion 02:02, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

Destruction of history is one of the greatest sins of mankind. Remember the library of Alexandria that was burned to ashes? Can we not learn from our mistakes and leave well enough alone? Why do we have to fit everything into a neat little tiny box? GregGallows

Well, I'd tend to agree with the deletion of documents, it must be noted that some information has been lost already. Barring that though, it must be noted that LG15 (and all attached blogs, fanfics, wikis and more) is a community. A community that brings together all sorts of people from around the web. People were welcomed to creatively add to the expanding Breeniverse as they please. As every author, actor and videographer is equal so is every work of fiction.

This teir system, along with being an article that could do with some cleaning up, creates an exclusive enviroment that is contrary to that of the original intent of the Lonelygirl15 community.

Taking into consideration Greg's comment, though, I suggest that this article be rendered obsolete and clearly noted as such so that there be no confusion and so that the inclusive, community enviroment be maintained and no one feel ostersized by their works, which are all creatively equal.

--Zudit 03:32, 6 August 2008 (CDT)

CdnMatt: As far as complete removal of documents, I believe that all works created (weather current or historical) should remain contained within the Fan-Fiction Portal page. Credit should be given openly as the user can judge to view or not view the link.

Portal Page: This document could contain much of the information that is discussed previously (including links to the fan-fic site, main characters, banner identification, name, overview, and #vids). The Portal should be set up as a grid-system to initially contain the name of the Fan-Fic and below the name - the banner or hyperlink to their respective site. The next section could contain a brief overview that is somewhat similar to the site's main-page overview.

The main purpose of this project would be to allow ease of access to fan-fiction pages and allow viewers to judge their preference for the series and/or return back to the portal to continue access to other series-sites. By doing this - we negate any need for a tier-system and eliminate any back-lash from the hard-work that people put in towards producing their series.

CdnMatt --CdnMatt 05:08, 6 August 2008 (EST)

I'd also like to nominate this page for deletion as I agree with all the points brought up in favor of it thus far. --JenniPowell 08:35, 6 August 2008 (EST)

I agree this process and the deletion of so much fan created content, however messy, is not desirable. Let's reduce the bureacracy, and increase the fun for the fan contributed portions of the LGPedia. And let's respect historical contributions and effort that went into producing them. I support deleting the "revamp" but perhaps we should keep a copy somewhere as an example of what not to do. ~ QtheC 14:33, 29 August 2008 (CDT)

What to do now

Hey everyone, thanks for posting. It's nice to see so many names on one page; it seems like we don't have useful discussions around here as much as we used to. It is of course true that this revamp has not gone anywhere for months, and I think one reason for that is that it is rather complicated. For example, the Flock Regulations as they are outlined would require a fair amount of work to keep up with and enforce, and I for one do not have the time nor would I want to devote the time to doing that.

On the other hand, what we have now doesn't work either. Pages and series get neglected, and it makes LGPedia look incomplete and messy. That was the whole reason the revamp was started in the first place. So we can't just throw it out and go back to how things were. The goal is organization and presentability, not exclusion.

If the tier system is unpopular, what do people think would work better? Ideally, we'd have a system that's not complicated, but keeps the pedia looking acceptable and also gives fan series the opportunity for a presence if they want one. Any suggestions?

(I see no reason to delete this page now, as it can provide some insight into what we should do. I'm sure some of the same issues will come up.)--Jonpro 03:21, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

I think one key is to allow people to start a single page for a new series without the "deletion tag" being thrown on there in a matter of days. We need to be more sensitive to the needs of the community and the impact such tags have on morale. Someone might also create a simple "recommended" template that could be posted on the talk page of any new series page created. That would provide a rough suggested format for a page and suggested guidelines that could be followed on a voluntary basis. I do not think we need to rehash the old discussion. This is more about keeping the pedia as friendly and open to new users, new formats and new ideas as possible while still recognising the administrative needs of the pedia.--modelmotion 06:55, 7 August 2008 (CDT)
I totally concur with what ModelMotion said. He and I have very similar perspectives on the Pedia. We believe in inclusivity over exclusivity. We also both left the Pedia for a lot of the same reasons. The ultimate solution to the problem is more editors. Obviously, that's easier said than done but I am going to reveal how to slowly swell the ranks of the editors. Don't run them off and don't discourage them before they get started. More on this later...but back to the main topic. I understand the concern about keeping the Pedia looking neat... However most concerned with this are looking at it from the paradigm of the all knowing Admin/serious editor. The average schlep coming into LGpedia doesn't click the recent changes tab. They don't scan the overall page list or have a page they are watching. The average schlep just wants to look something up. IF they come here and find a bunch of pages with deletion tags on them, they certainly do not feel very empowered to write about something. They just turn around and leave. Deletion tags are EXCLUSIVE. Also..let's look at what this need for neatness has led to. Look at the User Generated content pages. There is a little sticky or a deletion tag at the top of all of them...NOW that is NOT clean and neat. It looks awful. Also as I pointed out in the nomination this process became EVERYTHING it was intended to attempt to address. Its a BIG ugly looking mess that is a dead end..and created more work than maintaining the pages in question could EVER have done. When I first came back and started looking around the Pedia, I saw the state of how User Generated Content was being handled and my dog ended up hiding under the bench. For one...I COULDN'T find it. Its been shoved so far into the closet I had to look under the golf clubs, the bowling ball, 3 empty shoe boxes, "AHhhh there it is." Now to someone like Jon that has been here the whole time, where it is, is more than obvious. To a Noob or a retread like me, its hidden. Now what are the solutions...INCLUSIVITY. IF an article is short and incomplete... Don't stick a deletion tag on it..Use the STUB. The Stub encourages someone else to work on it. While it MIGHT look bad, think of it as the worm on the hook. It's bait for new editors. Someone comes across an article..sees the stub tag and says..I can add to this..and jumps in. It could be a fairly inconsequential article..it doesn't matter...someone was motivated to write it so someone may be motivated to finish it. Think of stub tags as bait and deletion tags as repellent for new editors. Which would you rather have all over the place? One that may motivate someone or one that reduces their morale before it even gets started? I think everything needs to be looked at from the paradigm of "Does this ADD information to the Pedia and does it add to the community or does this take away information from the Pedia and detract from the community ". I think this tier system OBVIOUSLY took away from the community. It created a Caste system which most people didnt want to deal with. Folks don't want the drama of having to discuss and justify EVERY single thing they do. Most people avoided this discussion because they didn't want to be false logiced and Flow chart syllogismed to death. I have yet to speak to someone that thinks these tiers are a good idea...its obvious they aren't. It creates a bureaucracy where one was not needed. Bureaucracies are inherently inefficient as they add unneeded steps to a process. The effort and work put into the creation and discussion of this one could have been funneled elsewhere. I think this whole thing needs to be archived in some DEEP dark corner so we can peek in and be reminded of just what the bloat of government can cause. Wiki is intended to be an organic process..one that grows and changes over time. That leads to more information and more contributors over time. Adding too many rules just bogs down the creative process and discourages others from joining. People dont want to learn a car load of rules..and have overly dramatic discussions about pretty trivial stuff...they will just go watch a few bad videos instead. Now let me give a few examples of some things. There was a creator named Maccaboy17 that jumped on with videos that referenced mine and took things his own way..for 3 videos. Being the inclusionist that I am, I added a page for him. Suddenly, his videos stopped and he even closed his accounts. Now pay attention to the discussion on his page and the histories. I left not that long after this..but this was a case where...deleting the page should have been easy..and others had seen it..but instead of simply DOING it..it led to this whole major discussion that...did more harm than it could ever do good. For now, we should delete no articles as I have a plan working with Model to handle it..but more on that later. Another important point I want to make out is...most people are not going to find all these partial articles...it really only looks bad to the admin...and then..only if you look at it. You might say...but we DO look at it..and I suggest..there are a lot of other places you can look instead. We all know you guys have 6 gajillion projects and you work rather hard...this is not an implication you are slackers...but..look how the Welcome page was neglected before I started to alter it. It has a button on the left that shows on EVERY page cause its always there on the left right under community. So I think we can admit..its fairly prominent. Yet it had information on there about KateModern that had not been updated since the show started... Now THAT looks bad. Its a basic ENTRY page..and yet its not maintained. Also...I really think Lucy's balcony shouldnt be over there. YES it makes it easy for the regulars to get to...but it makes it easy for the noobs too...and with discussions like the UGC revamp..its gonna make people in to Sir Robyn of Monty Python's Holy Grail fame...and they will run away..bravely run away away...but I digress...sorta...but not really...the order of the day should be to ENCOURAGE and not DISCOURAGE. Ultimately, my point is..if a page as prominent and important as the welcome page can be over looked for so long...do we really need to worry about partial pedia pages for a series? It may be a partial page..and someone is bored and comes along...finds a new series to watch..and then decides they want to spruce the page up. We just need to remember..this can take LONG periods of time...we don't have millions of people using this pedia every day so it takes longer for things to happen. Those of you working every day so diligently in the trenches here notice the dead bodies...but when the bullets are still flying over head...the reinforcements aren't that worried about it...they would rather attend to the wounded..and move the battle forward while not getting shot their self Now just like a battle...the dead bodies NEED to be attended to..its just not a priority. Ultimately if the creators are allowed to create and the organizers allowed to organize we can all get somewhere on this dead horse...but if instead we discuss it...like we are now...and it goes on forever and restricts people..it will get no where. So lets not talk to much..let's act.. Model, ,myself and some others have some plans where we intend to more prominently expose the Community Content. Hopefully this will get a few people at least exposed to some things they havent seen before..and maybe encourage some of those that have been run off to come back and help.

--LordGreystoke422 10:38, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

I'm still calling for deletion, but if that isn't acceptable, fine. I think there should be a policy that makes things easy for all contributors, both editors and fan fic contributors alike. I don't think there is going to be any system that both will be completely happy with. Also, Jonpro stating that things can't go back to the way they were before seems to be final. My suggestion then is to reverse this way of thinking and just do exactly that. Fan fic pages are never going to be as easily categorized as the lonelygirl15 pages. They are sometimes going to be a little messy. Nominating them for deletion is exclusive.Apo 16:30, 7 August 2008 (CDT)
I created a Community Video Series index page the other night to try and make it easier to find the community video series. It still needs work but it is a start. --modelmotion 23:22, 7 August 2008 (CDT)
while this monster is being rehashed again, i might make a minor suggestion that we agree on some convention so that all community series / fan fic pages are clearly marked as fan fiction, to avoid confusion among casual readers about what's canon and what is not. maybe a page color or some marker at the top of each page (vs. the bottom category listing alone). i think the admins have reasonable concerns about neglected shitty looking sections of the pedia, and the fan fiction supporters have reasonable concerns about preserving the historical record of lg15 fanfiction. one huge thing that has changed since the tier system was developed, and which was not contemplated at the time, is that lg15 is over. (the new show is something different, frankly.) this gives us a chance to decide how to preserve what exists, and less of a concern about the maintenance problems which were very real when the tiers were created. i think the idea of an overarching hierarchy based on "importance" was too ambitious and unworkable in hindsight. i agree to assist in any plan to spruce up what is out there now, hopefully some consensus can be reached based on changed circumstances. --Milowent 09:59, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
sample: Lg15communityvid.JPG --Milowent 10:08, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
Personally, I've always been partial Ren's initial idea of letting a page sit for a few months before deciding what to do with it. I think the best way to go about things would be to allow an initial grace period of x weeks for a new series page (although we should attempt to cap additional branching pages) before judging on its importance or not. I recommended something similar for the Theloneliesttraveler page that popped up lately. Leaving things up to the community just seems better overall.
As for current pages, I think we should just go through them in a mad sweep sometime soon and discuss how, exactly, things should be cleaned up. Institute sandbox pages that were agreed upon, maybe delete some of the more minor series that are taking up space (I'm thinking of the New Girl stuff in particular, here). And, most importantly, once a series has ended, it's free reign to reorganize the pages however the community sees fit. Honestly, that should probably be the mindset for all pages, but I'm not sure everyone can be happy with that.
Also, I like your idea of sectioning off non-canon stuff, Milo, but I don't think it's feasible. You and I both know how many pages are out there right now. I've been trying to work the reverse and flagging down canon material, but even that's a tad ridiculous. Right now the easiest thing to do is keep non-canon pages from being linked by canon material without some sort of disclaimer.
P.S. What are we going to do with the Spin Offs page? We have, like, 5 similar pages now, and as far as I know that's the most comprehensive in terms of one-off-videos. - Shiori 23:57, 11 August 2008 (CDT)
it can take many months to establish a good series.--modelmotion 06:39, 12 August 2008 (CDT)

I must agree that I have never liked this project from the start. The LGPedia should be for the community, and I as a member of the community don't mind things being a bit messy as long as work is preserved. Virginian9000 15:43, 29 August 2008 (EST)