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By nominating Necronomicon H.P. Lovecraft and Kathulu Majik for deletion Tannhaus clearly has an agenda of stamping out all free debate that he does not agree with. I have attempted to accommodate every point he has made in accordance with standard wiki procedures however this one sided approach is difficult to deal with. I think a discussion of both fictional and nonfictional topics that bear some relevance to the LG15 story line is worth debating. Writers not only draw on nonfiction for inspiration but also fiction. The Creators have stated that Bree's religion draws on a number of influences. I have attempted to research and document these in good faith and I do not think it would be fair if these substantial contributions are just discarded without appropriate discussion and debate of their relevance to potential future story lines. It should be remembered that the Creators want us to express where we would like the story to go and it seems to be that research into what has gone before in terms of story lines is highly relevant.--modelmotion 03:40, 1 December 2006 (CST)

I think he has a possibly valid point. The connection is tenuous at best, and in particular, a person who came upon this page would have no idea why it was here. Justify the page's existence and link it in to the plot of lg15, and I'd gladly vote for it to stay. As it now stands, I'm neither for nor against it. --Brucker 12:43, 1 December 2006 (CST)

All I ask is that time be given to figure out how best to approach this topic. After he rewrites a page I need a chance to revise it and if it gets deleted I cannot do it.--modelmotion 12:47, 1 December 2006 (CST)

There, that edit you just did made the page a whole lot better, in my estimation. I think we need at least little things like that to justify a page's existence. That may not convince everyone, of course, but it's a start. --Brucker 13:52, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Good job Modelmotion!.--Iris2009

If you look back in the history of the page I actually had other material about Gates, but i had not stated it quite as directly. The process of researching LG has been an enlightening one for me as I begin to draw connections between rituals that cover thousands of years. Its only recently that I have begun to "get it" and it will take time to drew together all these links on LGpedia and make it clear that while fictional there are those out therre who really believe in this stuff.--modelmotion 14:02, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Just because a fictional work insults a particular religion is not grounds for deletion. Its fiction and last time I checked that is protected by Freedom of Speach, at least in the USA. It has always been clear to me why it was relevant but that material was edited out. It was then claimed that it was not relevant. That is a pattern that has been repeaded over and over and its just not fair. And besides, lets not forget that LG itself is a work of fiction!--modelmotion 14:35, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Tannhaus has been for a while coming dangerously close to "impinging on the Will" of just about everyone involved with the LG15 project IMHO. --Treefunk 14:50, 1 December 2006 (CST)

I haven't seen Tannhaus do anything of the sort. Do you have any evidence that he's been anything but respectful? I have seen none.--JayHenry 15:05, 1 December 2006 (CST)
Sorry, I was probably being too facetious for LGPedia. I'm highly skeptical that it is possible, unless living in total isolation, to avoid impinging on others' Wills. --Treefunk 13:38, 2 December 2006 (CST)

I really do not think it is an issue of being respectfull or not. The point here it is that LG 15 started our most intense curiosity when we all had a good glympse of Aleister Crowley in the wall of her room, speculation started trying to find out what religion was she in and most of all what kind of religion would have a so secret ceremony that would not allow Bree's parents to be present even though she hastold us repeatedly they are considered very important in the community. When this website stateded we sayw at the bottom the word Thelema written in greek and it steered us in that direction. Now we go through the same books he has written, The Book of the Law for an example and we try to dig and find out what would be the most secretive and sacred ceremony that would require someone to have shots and vitamins and a rigurous diet... which take us to, and would give us a sacred ceremony which requires the Cakes of Life, which implies blood. I mean c'mon we all know this is a work of fiction and we all understand this story was actually at the beginning steering in the direction of Bree being a Thelemite, maybe in a unorthodox and weirdest branch of this religion, but it was the original intent by puting a picture of Crowley in the wall. I mean I would bet you my left arm that if Bree had started by being a catholic we would all have dismiss Tannhaus as a fanatic if he wanted to edit the LGpedia as much he has now.--Rosieiswatching 15:34, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Maybe someone needs to point me to a specific change that Tannhaus made, but like JayHenry, I haven't seen anything disrespectful. All I've seen is a call for certain pages to be clarified as to their relevance to the project or tossed out, and that's actually what I would consider very respectful to the project, if not neccessarily to the tastes of some users. Modelmotion is taking a maximalist approach to the information in LGPedia, while others are more minimalist. All I personally care about is that the information be relevant and organized. --Brucker 17:41, 1 December 2006 (CST)

"Modelmotion is taking a maximalist approach to the information in LGPedia, while others are more minimalist." - I would agree with that. I want to understand the context of LG in terms of what has gone before it both in the real world and the entertainment world. I believe both are informative and relevant. Its certainly been an education for me reseaching comments made by other users after videos so I want to point out that these are not just my contribution. If you go back to thouth the discussion after videos there are many comments that point me in certain direciton to research.--modelmotion 18:07, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Modelmotion, I looked back at the version of this page that existed before anyone but you had edited it, and frankly, I don't see what existed there that clearly relates to lg15. The claim that you have made in places that Tannhaus and/or perhaps others removed vital information from the article ("nominating a page for deletion after chopping {out} the heart of a page") doesn't seem to me to hold. As I said above, I like the present version much more than any of the previous versions, but the question of how spurious the the information really is is still up for discussion. --Brucker 19:16, 1 December 2006 (CST)

There was information related to the opening of gates. Thats where I was going with it but i had not had time to research it any further. The notion is that there are various levels of open gates and Brees ceremony was probably related to one of those levels. This is an area where fact and fiction merge into one and I am certainly not an expert in the occult. I am simply trying to learn and provide some useful insight in what might be going on with the ceremony.--modelmotion 19:22, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Here is the information on the Gates that was deleted.:

See Aleister Crowley for more information related to LG. See necromancy for real world applications rather than fictional interpretations. Kathulu Majik is a component of necronomicon. + The Necronomicon is a fictional book invented by H.P. Lovecraft in the early 20th century in a series of short stories taking place in Massachusetts and related to the fictional Miskatonic University. It differs from the Egyptian or Tibetan books of the dead in the fact that the Necronomicon was supposed to be used to summon the dead whereas actual books of the dead were to be memorized by the deceased and acted as a guidebook in their journey through the afterlife. The Lovecraft invention of the Necronomicon, as we can see in wikipedia, has no basis in fact and never existed except in fiction. - + - Necro-Nomicon : The Book of the Dead, derived from Nomicon (Book of Law). + - + - Some Necronomicon works contain account of the Old Ones, their history, and the means for summoning them. It seems likely that Bree's ritual may involve such a ceremony to summons the Old Ones. + - + - THE FIRST GATE...THE GATE OF NANNA CALLED SIN + - + - THE SECOND GATE..THE GATE OF NEBO + - + - THE THIRD GATE...THE GATE OF INANNA CALLED ISHTAR + - + - THE FOURTH GATE..THE GATE OF SHAMMASH CALLED UDDU + - + - THE FIFTH GATE ..THE GATE OF NERGAL + - + - THE SIXTH GATE...THE GATE OF THE LORD MARDUK + - + - THE SEVENTH GATE.THE GATE OF NINIB CALLED ADAR

There was no discussion of what these gates or all about and how they might be relevant. The ancient Egyptians also believed in simliar gates so i hoped we could sift something out of this. I felt that i had provide a starting point that could be discussed and it just got chopped out.--modelmotion 19:27, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Yes, I saw that info and linked to it my comment above. The thing is, my personal tastes are "that the information be relevant and organized" as I said before. earlier to day, I dumped the entire Craigslist article, not because I don't think we need a Craigslist article (we probably ought to have one) but because there was a dump of information that was given no reference of relevance to lg15. That early version of this page was largely the same; I have no idea why there is a list of "gates" here, nor why there should be. I've heard no reference to "gates" anywhere in the series other than the completely mundane gate that Daniel climbed over to get into Lucy's backyard. --Brucker 19:44, 1 December 2006 (CST)

The gates issue just falls out when you start researching some of the topics related to ceremonies Crowley performed. I just did not have the time to develop the topic because I have been working on other areas. This stuff is not easy to understand if you are starting from scratch but I would never just dump random information onto LGpedia. The fact that the story line has moved away from the ceremony has not helped either. I expected this would be something we would revisit if and when the ceremony took place and new clues became available. The page should have been better researched but on the other hand I got it up and running for debate. I then tried to create a better organized infrastructure to make these pages more available to users who might want to help develop the pages. I actually want to encourage as many users as possible to contribute here because many of them know a lot more than me. I think if we can accomplish that then LGpedia can not only be a source for what happened on lonelygirl but it can actually be instrumental in providing a user created information base for concepts that might be included into the story line by the writers.--modelmotion 02:02, 2 December 2006 (CST)
I support the deletion of this page. Using the same criteria, we might as well have a page on the movie Stargate. There's no reason at all to believe that this obscure piece of fiction was somehow a significant influence on LG. Pages like this have helped make the LGpedia completely useless to the casual fan. Furthermore, this information can simply be merged with the information on the HP Lovecraft page to make the LGpedia less confusing.--JayHenry 12:09, 2 December 2006 (CST)

I definitely agree with a merge. Things get too spread out and minor topics that deserve only a paragraph or two end up on their own page. It makes reading and finding information a chore. In that same spirit, I would nominate the LG15 article "The Old Ones" for deletion as well and merge into the page on H.P. Lovecraft --Tannhaus 12:12, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Time to merge?

It's been a week. Shall we merge this page into H.P. Lovecraft?--JayHenry 13:49, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Sounds like a fair proposal --Treefunk 13:54, 7 December 2006 (CST)

I've just sort of been lurking during this process, but yes, I agree it's time. I think extraneous information like this should be collected and condensed into less articles. I can tell you when I first started reading the wiki trying to catch up and learn about LG15, I found these references to be incredibly confusing. On the one hand, I couldn't remember any (even subtle) mention or reference to it in the LG15 videos. On the other hand, I expected everything in the wiki to be relevant. So for the sake of the newbies... merge! OwenIsCool 15:50, 7 December 2006 (CST)