Talk:That Arrogant Jerk!

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character evaluation

i am making a note here regarding sarah's character. i know that a lot of people love sarah and feel that she can do no wrong but my intent is not to pass value judgment. by observing how sarah deals with conflict (and she has many conflicts!), i've noticed that she has difficulty admitting when she is wrong, often lies and is manipulative and yet here in this video she talks about jonas as if she has always had everybody's best internist at heart. this is false. sarah is a narcissist in how she identifies with things outside of herself and now she is extremely arrogant in how she talks about jonas. i can picture her yelling at him "you should have listened to me because i was right and you were wrong!" and completely forgetting about every time sarah screwed up. remember the notes she spilled in the water? remember the syrum that she "lost at a party" and most recently, her attempt to ruin daniel and malory? i feel it is important to take note sarah's disproportionately immature actions and reactions. lastly, there is a reason that the creators posted a video from both daniel and sarah. they WANT us to see the character difference between sarah and daniel. sarah is more aggressive and arrogant while danniel is far more thoughtful and pensive and empathetic. - play oct 4

Platy, I agree, but I also hate Sarah's guts so I'm not the best person to have on your side over this. I mostly wonder how you posted this tomorrow..Nancypants oct 3

i am from the future. obviously. lol... i don't think anybody on lgpedia has a more difficult time posting notes. granted, i didn't expect this one to stick because its critical of everyone's favorite character. and yet any evaluation of character development or symbolism is apparently 'opinion' and thus not relevant. oh well. - play oct 4

I can't say I feel one way or the other about Sarah, but the "absoluteness" of this note seems out of place in a wiki - "most arrogant" and "because she was jealous" in particular. Whether or not we think she is jealous and the most arrogant doesn't mean she actually is. (For the record, I do agree with the style guide that formal articles should have very neutral wording - opinions are what talk pages and blogs are for.) And the "it could be argued" doesn't really help take away the absoluteness, even if that was the intention. Also, while I agree that she did those things (lied and dropped the notes in the water), it seems like bringing those things up now when the Sarah-character has been shown to be trying to turn over a new leaf is denying that people have the possibility change - which in itself is okay, but ... sad. Anyway - people who hate something about themselves react most severely to it when it is mirrored in other people. I don't know where I'm going with this. Just my 2 cents. --Theresa 02:56, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
  • there is a difference between being arrogant and being confident in my evaluation ;-p
...i would also argue that Sarah hasn't changed as much as you give her credit. she uses the term 'turn over a new leaf'
in an episode where she says 'i want to be more honest' but really means to say 'i want to be the police that makes everyone else more honest, specifically daniel and his relationship with mallory' ...her motivations are more clear than cellophane.
i think the difference is that you are looking as sarah as if she is a real person and i am looking as sarah as if she is a character in a tv program. - platy oct 4
Whoa, whoa, I meant SARAH seems to hate arrogance in Daniel because she has been arrogant in the past - I wasn't making a statement about you. I don't know you at all, platy. -Theresa 15:21, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
somewhere there was a comment made by someone saying that my note was itself arrogant so i was not talking directly to you. i dont know where that comment went its gone now. - platy oct 4

Platy, here is the note you posted, I will highlight certain aspects of it:

" It could be argued that it is hypocritical of Sarah to accuse Jonas of being an arrogant jerk when Sarah is the most arrogant and vain character in the LG15 series. Many characters have made mistakes but Sarah is the one who dumped the documents from Spencer's dad into the water and Sarah is the one who lied about losing the serum and Sarah is the one who tried to ruin Daniel's relationship with Mallory because she was jealous."

Let's start with your bolded statement. Saying that Sarah is the MOST arrogant and vain character in the series is CLEARLY a judgement on your part. Who defines "most"? And while you do provide arguments (which are tainted with judgement as well... "Because she was jealous"... that is something you infered from the video, not anything that has been provided as fact), I could just as easily provide arguments for any number of other characters and their "vain and selfish acts." How about when Jonas slept with Bree because he wanted to be with her, even though he still had every reason to believe she was brainwashed? How about when Daniel continued to pursue Aunt Alex even after Jonas made it clear that he wasn't comfortable with his "Uncle Dan"? Whether you believe these arguements are as "convincing" as yours for Sarah or not, they are still debatable, and therefore a matter of the opinion of the poster. One of the things we strive for on a wiki is notes that are relevant and objective. While your note was relevant, it was truly not objective, and as such, I do not believe it has a place on this video page. Feel free to post it on the talk page though, or in the LG15 Forums. --Zoey 16:26, 4 October 2007 (CDT)

you are dancing around the point. sarah is arrogant and yet she accuses others of arrogance without acknowledging the arrogance within herself. other characters have acted arrogant but they have admitted to their faults in ways that sarah has not. jonas has spent several episodes confessing to his mistakes of thinking for himself and not including the group. daniel has also apologized several times. also, they will never point at sarah and say "look at you, you make mistakes" and imply that they have never made mistakes. sarah's arrogance can be objectively quantified as greater than other characters. i disagree with your reasoning. however, if you said 'this note does not belong here because you are trying to make a point that is far more complex to be contained in a two or three sentence note' that would be fair. and with that i'm done with it. - platy oct 4
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. Arrogance is a hypothetical construct, meaning there is no scientific way to measure it. Therefore, you there is no truly objective way to quantify someone as "more arrogant"... any more than you can quantify someone as "more loving" or "more caring". There is no truly objective way to measure any hypothetical construct. And since this is so, there is no way to objectively determine that Sarah is any more "arrogant" than any other character. Your argument is compelling, but the ability to provide a good argument to back up your beliefs does not equal an objective belief. --Zoey 18:31, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
then the same also goes for my entire page dedicated to feminism ;-p literary analysis, we will use many terms that are abstract and possess arbitrary meaning. if the wiki is here for viewers to draw connections and look past the surface level of the lg15 plot, we will need to use these vague terms. granted, an attribute like arrogance cannot be measured by any hard science. but perhaps by a softer science? haha... but this conversation is getting a tad bit absurd right now. i believe we understand where our differences are and i'm ready to leave it be... - platy oct 4

Okay, but with your feminism you are talking about aspects of a plot. You say that *insert video here* could contain some aspects of feminism because... You are not quantifying the amount of feminism they have. You aren't saying this is the MOST feministic thing, ever. With your note about Sarah, you were saying that she was the MOST arrogant character. It was a judgement that you were passing on her character, that could not be backed up in any scientific way. With feminism, you are tying in a connection, but not quantifying the levels of feminismness (geez, that's not a word haha). --Zoey 00:29, 5 October 2007 (CDT)

now you're just trying too hard. the concept of feminism and the concept of arrogance are equal in abstractness. i could go through and point to any episode where a female is allowed to speak before spoken to and i could argue that it is feminism and i would be correct. feminism can also be measured in degrees. and if i had a doctorate, it would be a science. same goes for arrogance. if i was a psychologist, i could measure arrogance. but that would be ridiculous now wouldn't it? haha... but thats besides the point really. if i could re-word my note it would just be "it is somewhat hypocritical of sarah to scold jonas for his arrogance when in past videos, sarah has also acted out of arrogance." just that. is that objective enough for you? haha - platy oct 5