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Lonelygirl15
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana
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 Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Sami wrote: | | I found it weird that Daniel didn't introduce himself. |
Good point. Maybe she really is the trigger, and he saw her during his "spin art" experience.
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I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
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Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker. |
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cephista
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Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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ummm, actually i think they just stopped filming while in the airport...i don't think nowadays they would let you run around the airport filming everything. so all the greetings, introductions and the putting away of the bags happened while the camera was off. don't you usually have to walk a bit and don't get off the plan and right into a car? so they had at least some time to chat before getting into the car.
so daniel just started filming again right when they get into the car. only thing that bothers me, is that alex didn't notice jonas' hand before. |
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imogene2004
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Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 429
Location: Texas
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PinkRanger
Casual Observer
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 80
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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I think that there were some things that were off with the whole introduction of Aunt Alex, much which have been touched upon by all of you above. I think that it really comes down to some oddities that might have been overlooked. Like someone said, why didn't Daniel introduce himself? Where are her bags? Then again, this could all be done for a reason...either way I think it was a little bit awkward but I'm sure the next video will do more justice  |
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newworldview
Suspiciously Absent
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="cephista"]ummm, actually i think they just stopped filming while in the airport...i don't think nowadays they would let you run around the airport filming everything. so all the greetings, introductions and the putting away of the bags happened while the camera was off. don't you usually have to walk a bit and don't get off the plan and right into a car? so they had at least some time to chat before getting into the car.
so daniel just started filming again right when they get into the car. only thing that bothers me, is that alex didn't notice jonas' hand before.[/quote]
This makes a lot of sense to me. It seems like there is too much speculation here, and it is likely that the creators just fudged a few things for simplicity sake. If the house is a safe-house, then maybe she'd used to everyone going in the back. If she really is anti-order, then if B&D are running from the order it would make a lot of sense that Alex wouldn't mind them all squatting there. I seems like the important questions in the video were: Where's Bree? Are we now just "calling up" Tachy to get a ride? And, why is Daniel so suddenly hormonal? (I'm exaggerating here, but really, why is DB trying to hit on Alex the minute they're in the car?
However, there are a lot of questions that are still unanswered: Where has his Aunt REALLY been for so long? What purpose does her house serve? Did Jonas know all along that his aunt and his family were anti-order? Why hasn't the order kidnapped him?
(on another note, what am I doing wrong when quoting people?) |
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PinkRanger
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 80
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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I agree. Too many facts and explanations could complicate things especially in one video. Are we overanalyzing? Or is it that there really are some necessary explanations missing that bug us? Haha I think its the latter  |
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maimeahiki
Casual Observer
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 41
Location: somewhere...[in paradise]
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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as i've said before in other threads, could this aunt be the person jonas was on the phone with when they were driving to the mountains? that could explain why jonas knew they could go there. if he was actually talking to her then they could even be conspiring. i know jonas produced those documents from the cabin and his aunt's office, but who knows what else is in that office.
something between jonas and his aunt is pretty suspicious
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Languorous Lass
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Gone, baby, gone
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| newworldview wrote: | | However, there are a lot of questions that are still unanswered: Where has his Aunt REALLY been for so long? What purpose does her house serve? Did Jonas know all along that his aunt and his family were anti-order? Why hasn't the order kidnapped him? |
Can't help you with the quotations, but I think you've made some really good points here.
My working theory for right now is that Auntie Alex has been working for the Order, but Jonas has not.
Why do I think she's with the Order? One reason is based on the information in the vids -- the fact that she's been following the disappearances/deaths of the members of the anti-Order faction. Jonas has been assuming that she's also anti-Order, but so far we've seen no evidence to support that assumption.
The second reason, though, has to do with the structure of the storyline itself. So far, since Bree's been on the run, everyone in her small circle of in-person intimates has been (or at least appears to be) on her side. Sure, Gemma turned out to be with the Order, but she was just a face on a screen to Bree -- not someone who was physically in her life on a day-to-day basis. And at least at this point, it looks like Jonas is a good guy. (Plus, since his release, we haven't seen Daniel get triggered into the alternate "DannyB" personality we all assume is buried in his psyche.)
What's more, we haven't gotten to know anybody (other than Gemma) who's with the Order. Lucy, OpAphid, the Watchers -- they've all gotten just a few seconds of screen time, at least in the main vid series.
So IMHO, adding another ongoing, on-screen character who's on Bree's side would do nothing to advance the story or make/keep it interesting.
OTOH, adding someone who's an ongoing, on-screen character, who's involved in Bree's life on an intimate basis -- and who is actively working for the Order -- would contribute a fresh and exciting element to the series.
Now for my theories about Jonas.
First of all, why I think (at this point) that he's not with the Order: I saw the movie "The Lives of Others" over the weekend. It's about the East German secret police, the Stasi, spying on private citizens and turning them into informants for the state. (No spoilers here, don't worry.) One of the early scenes shows a Stasi agent teaching new agents interrogation techniques. He has filmed a suspect who was kept in a chair, without being permitted to move or sleep, for many hours. The teacher agent makes the point that by that point, someone who is innocent will be extremely angry and demanding to be released, while someone who is guilty will be weeping and pleading for mercy and/or calmly asking to be released.
The writer/director of "The Lives of Others" (Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck) insists that although the particular case depicted in the film is fictional, it is based on true events, and the film was exhaustively researched. Therefore, I assume that its description of the behavior of innocent vs. guilty suspects is accurate -- which means that if the LG15 creators are also sticking close to reality, Jonas was telling Bree the truth about his lack of involvement with the Order.
I suspect he's known all along that his parents were anti-Order -- that's why he knew where to go to get evidence to Prove Bree Wrong, and that the next place to go was his aunt's house. I think, though, that he doesn't realize that she's with the Order -- and that's why the Order hasn't kidnapped him or otherwise shut him down: he's more valuable right where he is, as someone who's close to Bree, and more importantly someone who can be milked for information by his beloved Aunt.
What do you all think? |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I know some of these things have already been touched upon, but I just want to make sure nothing's missed, because I think there's a lot of unnecessary speculation running rampant here.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | Thats what I've been trying to point out.
1) If Jonas hadn't seen her since he was 14, how did he know she was going away and how did he know that she was coming back? |
Telephone or e-mail.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | | 2) How did his aunt get to the airport previously and did she know Jonas would be picking her up? |
Cab.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | | 3) Even if Jonas spent some time there, how did he know he could get it through the back, and if you go on a trip out of the country--let alone out of the city or to the grocery store--would you keep your back door unlocked? |
Jonas never said how he got in. He might have gone in through a window.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | | 4) If she had no bags, does that mean she was never really gone? |
She had at least one bag with her when she got in the passenger's seat, and there may have been other stuff put in the back already.
| longlostposter wrote: | | When she gets in the car, there is no, "How are you doing? Nice to see you". Neither were there the usual hugs that accompany such a reunion after five years of aunt and nephew not seeing each other. In fact, it looked rather formal. |
Jonas and Daniel were getting in the car with her, so they'd already done those things.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | | If you hadn't seen anyone in 3 weeks, let alone 14 years, wouldn't you be a little upset if they broke into your home, while you were away on vacation, and had been squatting there until your return? Think about it. |
Jonas knew there was a hidden key (which was too well hidden to be of help to him), so it stands to reason he'd been told he could go there when he wanted to.
It's only been about six years since Jonas saw her, by the way.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | | Jonas had to notify her that they were going to her house for her not to be bothered that they 'broke in'. So, he must have used his cell phone, when he shouldn't have, to contact her and let her know. Of course though he didn't tell DB or Bree about it, hence why Bree was upset when he was 'just going to break in' and hence the reasoning why he felt so comfortable about it. |
Not necessarily. As I suggested above, it stands to reason that he'd been extended an open invitation if he knew there was a hidden key to look for.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | So, then questions still remain:
1) Why didn't Jonas tell Bree/Daniel that he had been speaking with her?
2) Who else has Jonas been in contact with? |
1) I don't think he'd necessarily spoken with her before the "My Hand Hurts" video.
2) Now, that's a good question.
| nobackspacebutton wrote: | The dynamic duo didn't know it was okay to enter the Aunts house.
They surely would have mentioned it if Jonas had set up something with his Aunt...a safe place for them to stay. |
Jonas seemed pretty sure it was fine to go into her house (refer to "On The Road Again"). The only thing he didn't seem sure was okay was going into her office.
| Sami wrote: | | I found it weird that Daniel didn't introduce himself. |
He probably did and it wasn't recorded or wasn't included in the final edit.
| cephista wrote: | ummm, actually i think they just stopped filming while in the airport...i don't think nowadays they would let you run around the airport filming everything. so all the greetings, introductions and the putting away of the bags happened while the camera was off. don't you usually have to walk a bit and don't get off the plan and right into a car? so they had at least some time to chat before getting into the car.
so daniel just started filming again right when they get into the car. |
Quoted for emphasis.
| cephista wrote: | | only thing that bothers me, is that alex didn't notice jonas' hand before. |
Yeah, that one kind of bothered me too. Only thing I can think of is that he had his hand in his pocket. |
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Klaatu
Casual Observer
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 37
Location: NZ
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Lurker: I have a great deal of respect for you and your contributions so I hope you will not be offended when I tell you that thsi latest post is not deserving.
I was never really sure what people meant by fanwanking until I read this. (I may still be wrong - who knows). Rather than end speculation your tireless rationalizations and excuses seem to suggest conspiracty. YOu are making things way too tidy.
My conclusion after watching this (and many other episodes) is that the writers are either in over their head, exhausted or just plain lazy. There are entirely too mnay loose ends and unexplained occurences. Way, way beyond the number needed to encourage a sense of mystery.
Many of the points raised in this thread aren't mysterious, they are more of the "WTF" type. I see this more and more these days and notice that more and more people are asking the same WTF questions.
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Gort! Klaatu. Barada nikto |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Klaatu wrote: | Lurker: I have a great deal of respect for you and your contributions so I hope you will not be offended when I tell you that thsi latest post is not deserving.
I was never really sure what people meant by fanwanking until I read this. (I may still be wrong - who knows). |
No offense taken, but, yes, you are wrong. I hardly consider this fanwanking.
Fanwanking is when someone ignores all logic and reason to make something look like platinum just because they don't want to concede that it's flawed. You should know from my previous posts (many of which were addressed directly to the Creators in threads they couldn't help but see) that I've harshly criticized the plot and/or production at times.
I just genuinely found all the speculation in here baseless. We saw them driving to the airport, and then we next saw Daniel, Jonas, and Alex getting in the car, but some assumed there had been no hugs or introductions. I was - no offense intended to anyone - puzzled why anyone thought that.
As for Jonas' knowledge of his aunt's activities or his knowledge that she'd be fine with him showing up and entering her house while she wasn't there, I found it equally strange that not as many people assumed - in this day and age - that them not physically being in one another's presence indicated that they couldn't have communicated since that last physical meeting (even though Jonas knew there was supposed to be a hidden key).
And the thing with Alex getting to the airport without driving. Most people I know take a cab to the airport if they don't get dropped off by a friend or relative. Lots of people don't like to leave their car in the airport parking for weeks and have to pay for it.
And then the thing with how Jonas got in. Why was that any more odd than when Daniel got into Bree's house back in "Back At Bree's"? We didn't see Jonas just walk up to the back door and open it and he never said that's what he did, so I didn't think there was anything at all peculiar about that.
And then Alex's bags - she did have at least one that we know of, and, again, we didn't see everything that happened at the airport, so why would we assume that she didn't have more bags that had already been put in the car?
| Klaatu wrote: | | Rather than end speculation your tireless rationalizations and excuses seem to suggest conspiracty. YOu are making things way too tidy. |
That's the thing, though: Things really are that simple. As BA said she's started to realize, we aren't supposed to be expecting that everything is shown to us - especially relatively insignificant details. We didn't even get to see the resolution of the Hostage Crisis, so why should we expect minor, unimportant details to be significant when they don't show up?
| Klaatu wrote: | | Many of the points raised in this thread aren't mysterious, they are more of the "WTF" type. I see this more and more these days and notice that more and more people are asking the same WTF questions. |
Again, no offense intended to you or anyone else, but that almost sounds like whatever the opposite of fanwanking is. I know it's not that no one here is a fan - but it just seems like everyone's looking too hard for clues of some kind when there's very simple, logical explanations that make more sense than any potential conspiracy.
Is it because it's been too long since there was an ARG drop or does everybody just like analyzing that much? I don't think everybody in here really plays the ARG hardcore, so I'm thinking it's maybe just a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
I do think that the thing with Jonas' hand is odd, though. Like I said, the only logical thing I can think of there is that he was trying to hide it as long as he could. That one actually could be a production/writing goof.
Last edited by Lurker on Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:37 pm; edited 12 times in total |
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cosmicdancer
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Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 465
Location: on the road.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that introductions between Daniel and Alex were made when the camera was off. As well as her bags being loaded into the car. All three of them got into the car at the same time. Therefore one can assume they met her inside the airport, and probably had their first moments of the reunion between Jonas and Alex off camera. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Languorous Lass wrote: | My working theory for right now is that Auntie Alex has been working for the Order, but Jonas has not.
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What do you all think? |
I can't see any holes in it. The argument is sound, if not sensible.
I hope she's not a bad guy, though.
By the way, that thing you mentioned about "The Lives of Others" is interesting. Nice catch that. |
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Languorous Lass
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Gone, baby, gone
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | | Languorous Lass wrote: | My working theory for right now is that Auntie Alex has been working for the Order, but Jonas has not.
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What do you all think? |
I can't see any holes in it. The argument is sound, if not sensible. |
Do you mean "sensible" in terms of the plot, or "sensible" in terms of my thoughts about what makes a good story?
| Lurker wrote: | | I hope she's not a bad guy, though. |
Well, on this one we'll have to disagree.
| Lurker wrote: | | By the way, that thing you mentioned about "The Lives of Others" is interesting. Nice catch that. |
I was sitting in the flick wondering, "How pitiful is it that while I watch this film based on extremely disturbing historical events, I'm thinking about its effect on my interpretation of the plot of LG15?" 
But thanks. You know how much I respect your opinion.
BTW, I also think that Klaatu is wrong. Fanwanking this ain't. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Languorous Lass wrote: | | Do you mean "sensible" in terms of the plot, or "sensible" in terms of my thoughts about what makes a good story? |
I was thinking more in terms of the latter (your point about how we've so far not had a verified Order member hanging around the main characters particularly made sense from a storytelling perspective), but I can also see it working in terms of the plot. I don't think we know enough yet about the plot to determine if that's the best development or the most likely one, but it would actually work (and that's the important thing at this point).
Sorry for not being more clear.
| Languorous Lass wrote: | | Lurker wrote: | | I hope she's not a bad guy, though. |
Well, on this one we'll have to disagree. |
Fair enough.
| Languorous Lass wrote: | | Lurker wrote: | | By the way, that thing you mentioned about "The Lives of Others" is interesting. Nice catch that. |
I was sitting in the flick wondering, "How pitiful is it that while I watch this film based on extremely disturbing historical events, I'm thinking about its effect on my interpretation of the plot of LG15?" |
That's not so bad, really. A little funny, but not pitiful. I think we've all had a moment or two like that (not necessarily with disturbing historical events, but you know what I mean).
| Languorous Lass wrote: | | But thanks. You know how much I respect your opinion. |
You're welcome. Likewise.
| Languorous Lass wrote: | | BTW, I also think that Klaatu is wrong. Fanwanking this ain't. |
My turn to thank you. |
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