Lonelygirl15

[silvermoon]

Here's another one I found. Now I really, really, really have to go buy food!

[storyteller]

[trainer101]

[Kasdeja]

[trainer101]

Bree responds to a question about the Illuminati.
http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77453&highlight=#77453
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It's STILL all connected...

[trainer101]

Bree's slightly cryptic answer regarding the Watcher symbol on her back.
http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77444&highlight=#77444
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It's STILL all connected...

[trainer101]

Illuminati
O.T.O.
Thelema
Crowley
Deacons
Longitude
Horoscope
Camp
Secret Societies
etc., etc., etc....
http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Ordo_Templi_Orientis
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It's STILL all connected...

[Lord Balto]

I just dug out Charles Heckethorn's The Secret Societies of all Ages and Countries. As usual, Heckethorn has material to be found nowhere else, including the actual rituals of initiation of the Austrian and French Illuminati.

Just a few items:

There is an Illuminati alphabet--actually two--so why would there be any use of Egyptian hieroglyphs? The higher orders communicated in these alphabets. The lower orders used a simple numerical cypher, rather like a cryptogram.

There were 13 degrees in the Illuminati, organized into three classes. The middle class used terminology related to Scottish Rite Masonry:

The class of "Masonry" was divided into "Symbolic" and "Scotch" degrees, the former further divided into Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason; the latter into Illuminatus Major (or Scotch Novice), and Illuminatus Derigens (or Scotch Knight).

From the French initiation:

"From this moment thou shalt reveal to thy new chief all thou shalt have heard, learned, and discovered, and also to seek after and spy into things that might otherwise escape thy notice."

There is also a lengthy excerpt from the papers of Baron Bassus in which he suggests that the Illuminati should attempt to gain power over women by offering them various incentives including what would be termed today "liberation" and also the setting up of a "Minerval school" for their indoctrination.
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SEF

[trainer101]

[Lord Balto]

I won't try to deal with your post line by line. You obviously know the subject inside and out. Just a few points:

I forgot about the Enochian reference, but still, that's a long way from the Illuminati alphabet, which was simply a way of transmitting real-world languages in secret.

As for the symbol, the most obvious explanation is that it results from a merging of the hieroglyph for "to see" (an eye) and the one indicating the plural (3 vertical lines), that is, "Seers," or "Watchers." It certainly bears little similarity to the Eye of Horus, unless you insist on seeing all eyes as those of Horus. The question, of course, is why would it appear on the lid of a box? Did that box contain an eye of some sort? Keep in mind that there's a long history of gods in boxes. The Greeks captured an image of Bacchus in a box at Troy; The Hebrews carried a box that contained Yahweh, and even Noah is said in some traditions to have been born in the ark, which was nothing more than a large box. We could add to this the boat in which Moses was found and even the manger at Bethlehem.

As for cyphers, they are such a common plot element as to amount to nothing.

I have no idea how 13 grades of initiation could be confounded with 13 bloodlines that, presumably, have no hierarchical significance, though I must admit that the 10 antediluvian Patriarchs show up in some traditions as 10 brothers or sisters. I quoted this part because it indicated that the Scottish Rite was part of the first two, exoteric, classes that were contradicted and overthrown in the final class. I failed to completely explain this properly.

A quick search of the web indicates that the watchers are certainly an element of modern Illuminati lore, and the writers could have glommed onto this, but I don't see where it has any historical validity, but again, as you have pointed out, this is a fictional account. You may be on to something here.

[trainer101]

I was simply pointing out how pop-culture has co-opted many historical facts and remade the Illuminati into their own image.

I think we have to separate the historical references from the pop-culture/fictional references to really understand their place in the story. Clearly, this story is not drawing from any actual historical evidence (why would they, the fictional accounts of the Illuminati are so much more fun for this type of story).

For the most part, the Creators create the story then we try to tie the pieces together. I'm not sure they delved THAT deeply into the traditions of Secret Societies and/or Global Conspiracies.

While the threads that tie this to the fictional Illuminati are strong, the ties to any historical organization are very loose, to say the least. We CREATE the Illuminati from our own perspective. We become part of the story arc.

With regard to the correspondence, my point was that it's the young ladies - Bree, Tachyon (and perhaps Gemma) that seem to be the most difficult for the Order to handle. They may very well be the rogue element that brings down the Order - intentionally, or not.
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It's STILL all connected...

[Lord Balto]

Agreed, it's all fictional and not historical. But how exactly are they going to bring down the Order? By posting on YouTube? Now Gemma thinks she's being followed. They wouldn't even have been interested in her if she hadn't posted. If this fictional Order is anywhere nearly as powerful as it is supposed to be, what's a little posting that doesn't even mention their name going to do?
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SEF

[watchingall]

[Lord Balto]

Watchingall wrote:

[Nieriel.Manwathiel]

Hope I'm editing this right...