Color for Gina/Crystal......I think Blanched Almond(#FFEBCD), Peach(#FFE5B4) or Wheat (#F5DEB3),one of them , is suitable for a real builder. - AzukiLotus 17 February 2008
Today, I added the material below to the Crystal Young page, a bit of trivia, of interest to those who are fans of Crystal Young aka Gina. Why was this deleted by Renegade with the history comment "wtf?" ~ QtheC 20:15, 26 March 2008 (CDT)
Other LG15 Appearances
In March 2008, Crystal appeared in photos of an LG15 hosted BBQ along with an unidentified brunette. Amanda Goodfried on Inside LG15 commented: "The unnamed brunette is Crystal’s cousin, not an employee or cast member." Some fans have speculated that this "unnamed brunette" is actually Reese Witherspoon.
Miscellany (Trivia, Speculation, Rumors and Fun Facts)
- In March 2008, Crystal appeared in photos of an LG15 hosted BBQ along with an unidentified brunette. Amanda Goodfried on Inside LG15 commented: "The unnamed brunette is Crystal’s cousin, not an employee or cast member." Some fans speculated on LG15 Today and in IRC that this "unnamed brunette" was actually Reese Witherspoon. Zoey later received "official confirmation that Crystal's cousin is not Reese, but just happens to look a lot like her," effectively ending the speculation.
- "appearances" on LGPedia usually refer to appearances in videos, thus the phrasing of the section is highly confusing.
- This type of section as a whole is entirely unprecedented, most likely because...
- This section is useless. Do you want to note on every actor/ress when s/he has been on a photo? That's ridiculous. Inside LG15 is the behind the scenes blog. Crystal regularly appears on there. That's expected and nothing special/noteworthy. In addition, the fan speculation note was obsolete and redundant the second the comment you linked yourself was released - what do we care what the fans speculated when we have official confirmation who she is?
- Neither the fact that Crystal Young is on behind the scenes photos, nor that she has a cousin, nor that she is on photos with her cousin is noteworthy. If you feel these photos should be shared, add a link to the post under See also/External links. But an own section for an everyday situation is unnecessary.
- ~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:35, 26 March 2008 (CDT)
- Also, please don't take the WTF thing too seriously. I had asked Ren to do this because I was on the run and told him to take care of it, and jokingly made a comment that it was "WTF?" content. That being said, it does go to show that, especially for content that clearly doesn't belong on a page, an explanation isn't often viewed as necessary. Ren's explanation seems to be exactly what I was going to say, regarding why the content shouldn't be here. - Shiori 20:53, 26 March 2008 (CDT)
- ~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:35, 26 March 2008 (CDT)
- Renegade's discussion seems to have missed the point that the speculation and interesting and unconfirmed news was that Reese Witherspoon may be Crystal Young's cousin. That was the reason for the addition of the content, not merely that Crystal appeared in behind the scenes photos, etc. What was confirmed was that the girl in the image is Crystal's cousin. What was speculated but unconfirmed was that she is Reese Witherspoon. If the word "Appearances" is confusing, certainly some alternative may be suggested. I will look into the helpful suggestion about adding a link under the "See also/External links" section.
- ~ QtheC 11:53, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- Trying to find the most appropriate format to add the content... The page for Jessica Lee Rose has "LG15 Related Appearances" as well as "External Links." The page for Yousef Abu-Taleb has "Other Works and Appearances", "Rumors", "Fun Facts", and "External Links." Though not an exact match, the content I added clearly has precedent in these pages. Renegade suggested "See also/External links" which is possible with a link to Amanda's comment on the article on InsideLG15. Usually, the "External Links" are brief without images or discussion as is found in the other sections on actors pages. Perhaps a section named "Speculation" or "Other" or "Miscellany" would be a better alternative than "Other LG15 Appearances" ? [QtheC herein copied the suggested section above entitled "Miscellany"] ~ QtheC 12:27, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- The content you tried to add is not precedented on the other pages, because the content on the other pages are references to other appearances in public media, lg15-related or not, whereas the content you tried to add where not "appearances" in this common use on the pedia, but behind-the-scenes material. Being on a snapshot on a private party of the cast does not equal being photographed for Wired Magazine.
- In addition, if your original reason for adding this section was the Reese Witherspoon rumor, you utterly failed at writing the section - because the rumor only appears as a sidenote in the last sentence. If you want to note this rumor even though it's debunked, the simple addition of "Crystal was at one point speculated to be connected to Reese Witherspoon, after a photo of her with a similarly-looking brunette surfaced on Inside LG15. These rumors were quickly debunked by Amanda Goodfried, who explained that the girl was Crystal's cousin." as the last paragraph would be enough.
- Focus on the rumor, no need to include the images, no own section just for a debunked rumor. It's still not exactly notable, and I wouldn't rule out somebody else might opt to remove it, but I, personally, would not have cared enough about such an additional paragraph to revert it.
- The content I suggested is precedented by the kinds of material on the other pages - miscellaneous items of interest, "fun stuff", "rumors", and links to external references to the actors. As I said it is not an exact match, but that is really splitting hairs.
- Why are you assuming that the brunette cannot be both Crystal's cousin as well as being Reese Witherspoon? The rumor or speculation has not been 'debunked' as far as I can tell - it just wasn't confirmed. Personally, I think that it is Reese Witherspoon, but it is possible that Amanda just chose not to confirm her identity specifically by using her name, probably because she is a well-known actress and is not professionally connected to LG15. I have reread my text, and it seems clear and correct as far as what is known, and what is speculation, and what was said.
- If some other wording or order of sentences would be clearer, I'm open to suggestions. The images are part of the content, because they allow the reader/viewer to judge for themselves the identity of the cousin. That is why I also included a link to Ms. Witherspoon's IMDB page.
- ~ QtheC 17:41, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- The type of content you added is precedented. Creating an entire section like this is not. Mislabeling it as an "appearance" is not. Mislabeling it as an "LG15 appearance" is not. Not to mention that the fact that there is notable trivia on LGPedia does not automatically mean that this particular fact is notable trivia. I could note on episode pages which color Sarah's socks are - just because we previously noted when she switched from predominantly black to colorful outfits doesn't mean any note about any color of any of her clothes is automatically notable.
- As for your personal opinion, as far as I can see, it's just another case of wild fan speculation. Prove that it is a commonly held view, that it's a widely spread theory, and it'll be added on grounds of notability. Your personal opinion is not reason enough to add a rumors section to an actor page.
- And at least the "Crystal at the barbeque" picture serves no purpose whatsoever.
- ~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:00, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- The original speculation I was referring to appears on comments on the LG15 Today blog here: Lonelygirl15 Party. In that speculation, Modelmotion and Hopefulsemblance first identified the brunette as Reese Witherspoon, and I happened to agree with them. So that's at least three people who independently recognized her. Shiori said something in the article about "someone familiar" in the photo and "speculation running rampant" but her remarks and the comment by Amanda on the blog may have been as much about the actress who plays Mallory as they were about the brunette - it's a little bit vague. But yes, that's either Reese Witherspoon or her identical twin. Tell you what, I'll make an inquiry and see if I can confirm the speculation.
- The only reason to include Crystal's photo was to compare her face to her cousin's, looking for a family resemblance.
- ~ QtheC 19:10, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- In the original article, I didn't even reference Crystal's cousin. I was referring to Carly and Katherine being in there as to inciting speculation of the two returning, as it did. Now, I'll grant that some people thought it was Reese Witherspoon, but I still don't see that being the majority. They really do look nothing alike. (Plus where's Gyllenhaal then? They're always together.) But that's beside the point anyway. Crystal's cousin and her questionable identity don't deserve a section of their own, point blank. It could be notable (if proven) to state somewhere that Crystal is cousins with Reese Witherspoon, but this would not need its own section or pictures, since neither of these things directly relates to LG15 material. - Shiori 19:17, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- Shiori, I made it clear that your remarks were vague as to who you were referring to in the article. You said "not Jenni." That left either Carly or Katherine or the brunette. Since when does a rumor have to be held by a majority to be a rumor? There are Sections all over the LGPedia for small matters, merely for clarity of the presentation. Take a look at Yousef's page, and hundreds of others. Your definition of "noteworthy" is not mine. The reason for the pictures was stated previously - to allow comparison since it is, in fact, only speculation. Saying they "look nothing alike" is pretty far-fetched. Look again. If you cannot be unbiased enough to admit even a resemblance, something is very wrong. ~ QtheC 20:22, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- "Does she look familiar to anyone else? / reese witherspoon?" - "She bears a resemblance to Reese!". So basically, your justification for adding an entire section are two comments on an unofficial blog that mention that the brunette looks similar to Reese Witherspoon (which I don't deny), but don't even go as far as outright claiming that's her.
- Yeah, I think we can file this under "not notable" for now.
- ~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:22, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- Wow, all I said in the original addition was that "some fans have speculated" that she is Reese Witherspoon, with a link to the IMDB page so others could compare for themselves. Now I have given you a link to the origin of that statement. It's a rumor not stated as a confirmed fact. I was very clear about that. While you were adding your comments here, I polled a few people in IRC and some thought it was Reese, others thought it was not Reese. There was brief discussion of age, hair color, pregnancy. I've looked myself at a few pictures on IMDB and am still not 100% sure one way or the other.
- Now you two are making a federal case about "adding an entire section" (as if that is unusual on LGPedia when something new is added), and requiring some large number of people to swear the image is Reese. Frankly, I'm getting really tired of what is becoming - not a helpful discussion, but biased harrassment.
- So, here is what I am going to do - I am going to first try to independently confirm the rumor one way or the other from a credible source who would have the answer. Then I am going to add all the information, the speculation, the images, and the answer back onto the page in a section called "Miscellany", as concisely as possible without leaving out key information. That will leave it up to readers to enjoy the similarity for themselves, while having an answer to the question. If either of you still have a problem with that edit at that point, we will take it up with Zoey for resolution. Fair enough? ~ QtheC 20:22, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- No, Q, this is very much different. If this were a rumor about Crystal herself, I might be willing to listen to you on this one. HOWEVER, this is speculation involving her cousin. I just can't see how this could even be mistaken for Pedia-worthy material. This is like, if there were a Star Wars pedia, posting information about James Earl Jones's cousin on his mother's side four-times-removed (on his page, no less). It's just not notable. Especially not in the context you're trying to use it in. - Shiori 20:45, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- ROFL. I love how anyone on here who's incapable of proving his opinion is notable immediately tries to run to
mommyZoey. Especially with baseless claims like "biased harrassment". It's not my fault LGPedia is based on factual information, not hardcore fanboyism.
- If you can prove Crystal is related to Reese Witherspoon, that belongs into the middle part of the page, where the other information about her family is stored, not in its own section.
- If you can not prove Crystal is related to Reese Witherspoon, this is yet another wild fan speculation and at best deserves a one-liner at the end, not its own section.
- Either way, this is simply not notable enough to get its own section.
- ROFL. I love how anyone on here who's incapable of proving his opinion is notable immediately tries to run to
- Shiori and Renegade, obviously we disagree. Your sarcasm and disrespectful language here is not appreciated and not appropriate. Please refrain from continuing in this vein. You will notice that I am refraining from replying in kind with insulting adjectives or invective or sarcasm, all of which would be very easy to do and unproductive.
- The reason I added the material was that I thought it was interesting. You inserted the word "noteworthy" into the discussion. That is a particularly weak argument that ignores so much of the precedent set by the contents of this LGPedia. There is so much here that might be challenged as not "noteworthy" or as "silly" or "trivial" or "speculative" or "not factual" etc. etc. This is NOT wikipedia. It is a community resource that combines information and entertainment, and yes speculation and fun.
- I did not "immediately" turn to Zoey, but mentioned that alternative only after a long and unproductive discussion and opposition from you two individuals without signs of a resolution.
- ~ QtheC 23:26, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- (I'm not indenting this as much as I probably should, because it's getting silly.) If you be so kind as to note, all of the areas that have theories and the like have their own pages. We've been actively trying to keep notes on videos down to only things that are truly noteworthy, not just "Oh, see, the fans thought it was this way, but it wasn't. I really object to the section being present on the page. If you want it so badly, how about a "Fun facts about the actors" page or something? If I'm missing any areas where speculation/facts/etc. are presented on the Pedia, please let me know. - Shiori 23:56, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- Shiori, this is not a video page, where expectations might be different, it is the Crystal Young actress page. As mentioned earlier here, compare to "Fun Facts" on the Yousef Abu-Taleb actor page, other such sections on his page and on the Jessica Lee Rose actress page. I don't see any reason to separate these kinds of sections about actors to a separate page from the existing actors' pages, unless the volume of material grows significantly. It is more sensible to separate the 'hard facts' (biography, etc.) about the actor from the 'fun facts' (aka Miscellany) by putting the latter in a separate section farther down on the page. Another point of comparison, albeit a little different, there was a Rumor about Yousef being fired at one point, with the rumor later debunked by a statement from the Creators. That rumor appears both on Yousef's page and has it's own page documenting it in more detail. The decision how to partition such things seems to be an editorial question - is it better to have more shorter pages or fewer longer ones?
- As for what is "noteworthy" there is disagreement here. To me, activity by members of the community in relation to characters and actors, and statements by the Creators interacting with the community - these are noteworthy and of interest within this community. These kinds of things are a part of documenting the history of LG15 and it's community, and that's a good way to look at a lot of the "lighter" material on LGPedia. ~ QtheC 18:01, 7 April 2008 (CDT)
- Okay, here's how it's going to be. For now, pending the discussion on LGPedia talk:Deletion Policy, the way we've conventionally done things is to leave the disputed content off the page while the discussion is going on. So, I've removed the section for now, and it will stay off unless/until a definite conclusion is reached here stating that it should be re-inserted. This is to prevent edit wars from going on, and in no way has to do with my personal opinion about whether the section should be there or not. And please, let's all keep it civil. Things just work out better that way. Thanks!--Jonpro 00:10, 7 April 2008 (CDT)
- Jonpro, that's understandable, but I'm not sure how to obtain a resolution at this point, which was why I made the earlier statement about my plans to post the material, suggesting asking Zoey to finally resolve the question. In light of the previous comments on this page, I did some reformatting of the "disputed material" as it was posted - removing Crystal Young's picture and adding a comment about the answer Zoey received. Just so we are all on the same page about what we are discussing, I am adding that version near the top of this page as "revised content" just under the "original content". ~ QtheC 18:01, 7 April 2008 (CDT)
- 16 days later, and predictably, no "definite conclusion" has been reached - the process, if there is one, is not working. So once again, how am I to obtain a satisfactory resolution at this point? The only option I see is to simply reinsert the suggested material, and obviously, that will only bring out the naysayers again, so ??? ~ QtheC 00:53, 23 April 2008 (CDT)
- Okay, after reading the entire discussion, comparing the different versions of the section, looking at the discussions at LG15 Today and insideLG15, not to mention looking at pictures at Reese Witherspoon to see if there's even a resemblence (*sigh*), I have to also say that this just isn't significant enough to merit it's own section, Witherspoon aside. Looking at the other actor pages (particularly Yusuf's) there's just no real precedence for this kind of info. The Yusuf rumor page, for example, HAS its own page because, unlike most rumors, that one ROCKED the lg15 community at a time when we weren't show how long the show was going to last. Plus, it wasn't just the musings of a couple of posters or even a full chatroom . . . it was the entire community. As for his trivia section, the trivia is related to his role on lonelygirl15. The note in dispute would notes a rumor about Crystal's cousin at a private LG15 party. Because yeah . . . this just seems to much about Crystal's cousin (who's not even part of LG15) more so than Crystal herself. So maybe Shiori's idea of a potential "Fun facts about the actors" page would be the best option perhaps? --Pheon 02:41, 23 April 2008 (CDT)
I have gotten official confirmation that Crystal's cousin is not Reese, but just happens to look a lot like her. --Zoey 21:58, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
- Thanks Zoey, I had not heard back yet one way or the other. ~ QtheC 23:26, 6 April 2008 (CDT)