Difference between revisions of "LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives"

Revision as of 03:56, 24 March 2008

This is the archive of discussions from the fanfic revamp that are no longer active or have been resolved. To revive an old issue, please start a new thread at the fanfic revamp.

Questioning some of the earlier listings

• Aaronbeast - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to the Creators.

How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?

• Breeiswaiting - only one video; mentioned by Nikki Bower but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.

One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.

• Cassieresurrection - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?

You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?

• Deemontreal's "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid. And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.

Again, one video does not make a series, and you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.

• Kelseygirl15 - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with Ellastko, Schneidz124, and Linsy.

The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?

The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We don't want to keep everything. We want to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them.
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)

Well, the only ones I actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment. But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point. I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp. A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.

And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them. Silly Pheon :) --Pheon 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)

Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, please post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--Jonpro 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)

I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.

(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. Journeymystery

Other Series

Back to the discussion...

• Lonelyjew15 -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by Amanda Goodfried, and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
• MessyNessy89 -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?

Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --FH14 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)

I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.

Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the new girls transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - Shiori 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)

NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes. - Shiori 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)

I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of The Flock Videos. We have this lovely List of New Girl Candidates page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --FH14 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Historical Notability

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: itscassie) I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed. --DoubleG 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)

If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - Shiori 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

Bias

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here. I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty. 1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria? It has to have it's own forum section. If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--Immortal1 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)

I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.

And we all are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - Shiori 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)

I'm having a hard time following your logic. At least back up your argument with reasons. If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it? You'd need character pages and transcripts. Here's why I think the whole process is backwards. How can you rate a independent above a derivative? Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section? Not to mention, RE has it's own site. MA has it's own site. theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.) Point is there are other places to go to learn about them. Derivatives exist at lg15.com only. I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention. With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits. The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --Immortal1 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Well, you sold at least me, Immortal. Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge. Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--Pheon 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)

I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --FH14 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)

To be fair, I said The Flock could be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)

(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - Shiori 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page. - Shiori 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. LoveableMe 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)

Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. Virginian9000 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)

If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option. My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here. Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--Immortal1 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. LoveableMe 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

In term of bias- I may have been mistaken. Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias. After participating in the discussion I now think when it comes to this subject many are just uninformed and unaware. It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons. I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed. So all I can do is advocate and eleviate those placed too low.--Immortal1 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Reply to all

I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is still notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites. Let's start from the top:

• "Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.

-I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.

~ Renegade (talk |

contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
• The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.

-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. Videos per character is irrelevant. If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same. So? And please touch plot development. PLEASE.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I am touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says nothing. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.

You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".

~ Renegade (talk |

contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development! Are you kidding me with that?! And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific. Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers. It's pretty black and white. I think that's notable.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?

-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins. OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content. As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia. These are special cases.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is because they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

You can make that arguement against every other series listed. The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated. So it's apples and oranges.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• Derivative vs. independent - see here.

-see below.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.

-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge. The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated. I forgot about that. +1 for impact. +1 for historical significance.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable? The subforum was created to support the series.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.

-Cheap shot. Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?

As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.

If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.

....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have! I just want to be left alone, really. We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series. That's why they need transcripts. Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder? I don't see them on your list.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?

-Quarterlife is going to be on national television. Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15. Is that notable enough for you? Where are the QL pages?--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I didn't now RE was fanfic. Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.

-The Flock is a derivative. It would make no sense to make home anywhere else. Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.

All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is exactly the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

"All fanfics are derivatives by default." Are you serious?! Try reading the TOS.--Immortal1 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times."
  I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have 2439 hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel alone. Are you sure you want to argue with cumulated hits?

-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--Immortal1 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".

Is English your first language? Don't put words in my mouth. The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

If they are fanfic, then tough luck - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.

A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not. I do not. They have rejected the term. I'm not trying to punish anyone. I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?

Actually that's never ocurred to me. Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?

Wow man. Where have I backstabbed? What flavored crack are you on?--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you. I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself.. I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--Immortal1 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)

It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.

"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.

Again where do you get this stuff? I just don't want my pages scaled back. I need them more for new viewers not existing ones. The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Non-immo notes following:

• "Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
• Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is irrelevant. "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we do host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series suffer from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember any talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed.
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - especially if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.

-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months? The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left? See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--Immortal1 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?

I'd be surprised if they did. How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board? Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

And right, see above about your filing system forum.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched 306,386 times.
That is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get 637 views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ever, would I even get to 12000?
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and you were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)

P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P
P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.

-We can't go by views either. We all know views can be fudged. We don't want to go there do we? Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing. Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--Immortal1 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - Shiori 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>

Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant. And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --Immortal1 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Additonal Criteria

I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria. This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful. Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about. If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with. It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter. It's a factor but others should be considered.

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it. Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research. --Immortal1 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Self Published Pages or Fan Edits

I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them. So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages? I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--Immortal1 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Suggested Tiers

Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

Update 1: Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established. - Shiori 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. **Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.** Discuss and go! - Shiori 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)

I mentioned these "series" above (ZorinXL, Will-O-Wisp, and Worldfiles): Tier 1 or what?? --Pheon 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)

I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging MsBlackBetty to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - Shiori 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.

If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

We have to sort that out. Thoughts?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters (OpAphid, Tachyon, and Brother) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --Zoey 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --Virginian9000 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence. The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well. I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible. So is it really the right criteria?--Immortal1 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --Virginian9000 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)

The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15. Which is it? Is being on the forum criteria or not? It can't work for RE and not theC. And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--Immortal1 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)

When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --Virginian9000 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?

Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin. It's the common characters I'm having a problem with. When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin. That's my point. (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--Immortal1 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

On all things quarterlife: though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat not -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15. So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence. (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --Pheon 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)

• The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --Virginian9000 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)

I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which briefly summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.

(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.) I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - Shiori 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)

1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--Immortal1 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --72.201.161.166 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - Shiori 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.

Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series. I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too. Keep up the good work LGPedia! Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty. She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months. --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

Not Tier 2

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.

• The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
• Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
• LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters

(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--Immortal1 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Series to be listed

• Acrowleyorder: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

• dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

• Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse: 1) has it's own subforum

(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--Immortal1 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

The Flock

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

• How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum
• How many views do the videos of the series have on average? Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
• How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
• How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former. All performed by fans active in the community.
• How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7. 2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
• And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? 1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff. 2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series. There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website. The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence. 2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section. This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started. It is also a community project.
• How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask. It's not. If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons. But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community. Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--Immortal1 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Greg Mason

I guess we need to have a discussion on Greg Mason (aka masonishappy). He's new, which is why I decided to flag it as a new subsection. He's growing in popularity, so he deserves a mention, at the very least, but should he get his own page? Discuss. - Shiori 12:39, 6 March 2008 (CST)

Hmmm . . . I kinda like the idea of him getting his own page with just a list of videos, but no transcripts yet (I forget what Tier that would qualify under). Later, after some time has passed, we can better judge where he should properly go, either up or down the ladder. At least those are my thoughts, and I'm sure there'll be others

(But one thing's for sure - Greg's going to be good practice on how we decide to treat new fanfictions post-Revamp). --Pheon 13:14, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I vote for him getting his own page, at least for now. People should be coming to LGPedia whenever they wonder about a new promising series. --Milowent 13:25, 6 March 2008 (CST)

Works for me. I just wanted to get people's input on it. We'll have to make sure to put it on the revisit list, but for now I'll add it to Zoey's Tier 2 list, and I just put him on the Spin-offs page. (Obviously, in the unlikely even that he's canon, he'll need to be removed.) - Shiori 13:50, 6 March 2008 (CST)

Sofia's Diary

As it's a popular web series that predates LG15 I think that it should be mentioned somewhere. If you're going to have an academic resource that focuses on one web series to at least briefly describe other web series seems logical. If we never mention any other web series but ones known to be related to LG15 and KM and LG15 and KM themselves then we seem to be creating something false that ignores other series that are part of the history of web series. - Journeymystery

It doesn't seem logical to me. Using an example given by someone else, if you had a Star Wars wiki, you wouldn't put a history of movie page on there. LGPedia is for LG produced series and it's derivatives, not an accurate history of every web series. That's what sites and pages like Wikipedia are for. We're not ignoring they exist, we merely have no need to acknowledge they do.Babygurl1853 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I recognize that Sofia's Diary is a huge series, but we either need more information on that page or it shouldn't exist. (I can't even see why it should be covered/added to the spin-offs page. The series doesn't even really relate to KM or LG15 other than the fact that it's the same genre. We don't cover Quarterlife for the same reasons.) Discuss. - Shiori 16:40, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I agree. Perhaps we should just mention it in one of the historical LG15 articles, because I do think that little fact about it airing in Portugal in 2003 is noteworthy. Mention it there and perhaps on the Bebo page (you know, what other series Bebo carries). But yes, it's not LG15-related beyond that, and shouldn't have its own page.--Pheon 16:44, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

It shouldn't be added to the spinoffs page. However, a page like the ones for Greek and Laura might be good. However, if no one else sees any reason for the page's existance, I have no objections. --FH14 17:44, 17 March 2008 (EST)

If Sofia's Diary is an independent series with no connection to LG15 or KM, then it has no place on LGPedia.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

P.S.: BAH, no conflicting, Pheon!

P.P.S.: BAAAAAAAAaaaaAH, same goes for you, FH14!

(BTW, in case people were wondering, I only posted this under here just incase I was wrong about it not relating to the series. You never can tell what can be considered a spin-off these days.) - Shiori 16:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Hmm, I forgot about the GREEK and Laura pages. Perhaps we can group all these non-LG-productions under one page, mentioning that they DO have a connection to the LG/KM shows simply because of actor/crew member, but since they aren't in the Breeniverse, they don't get much more than a blurb? --Pheon 16:53, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, they are categorized under outside projects... - Shiori 16:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

But if you look at all those pages, they're all blurbs! Maybe it's just best to group them all under a big "Outside Projects" page . . . --Pheon 16:58, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

On this very same page, we have argued that Quarterlife is not within the scope of LGPedia just because of a common actress. And now we're arguing that Greek is notable because of it?

Do I even have to comment on the insanity of this, including how much it will confuse the Redearth/Maddison Atkins UGC/independence discussion?

Star Wars is not the same thing as Indiana Jones. A Star Wars wiki does not have a page on Indiana Jones just because Harrison Ford played in both. Independent productions have no business on LGPedia. So if Sofia's Diary is neither part of what we call the Breeniverse, nor LG15-related UGC, the page should be deleted.

And before somebody asks, yes, I do advocate the deletion of the Greek page, no I don't support the deletion of the Laura page, because Laura had both LG15's director and a cast member, and got coverage on Inside LG15. It is thus of certain behind-the-scenes notability.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I have to agree there's no connection between Sofia's Diary and lg15 and only strained logical reasons to include it here. The only possible place it could be mentioned would be if we had a page on "web series", but really others series should be covered on wikipedia which does have a "Web series" page we could link to. --Milowent 19:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

The characters from KM have actually subscribed to Sofia's Diary. Now, most likely they are watching it as fans of a show in a parallel universe but it is noteworthy.--modelmotion 21:26, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't think it's note-worthy because of that. The KM Characters went to see Disturbia and Enchanted -- but that doesn't warrant them having pages. Putting it that way makes it seem more it should go under advertising than anything else. What links does Sofia have to LG15 or the Breeniverse? No crossing over actors, or storylines. The only linking factor is Bebo -- but we don't have a page on Roommates just because both that and LG15 have posted videos on MySpace, for example.

Also, on the subject of Greek and Quarterlife, they should be just listed on a page titled "Other Projects", with a section for each of the cast that has done something notable, if it warrants more than a small mention on the actor's page. With Laura, as it has multiple links to LG15, I feel that it is fine to have a page of it's own.Babygurl1853 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

It seems that the majority here are in favor of deleting this page, and possibly figuring out another way to represent it in the future. Unless there are any serious objections to the page's deletion in 24 hours, I'll go ahead and remove it. --Zoey 02:50, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I object, but I seem to be in the minority. I have copied the information over to Wikipedia. Perhaps it will find a home there.--modelmotion 10:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

HOOBS

I disagree with the Tier 1 listing, supporting Tier 2, on the following grounds:

1. The Tier 1 listing reason is invalid - the fact that something is explained elsewhere is no reason not to include it in an encyclopedia - does Wikipedia not have a page on United States of a America, just because Encyclopædia Britannica already wrote about them? Does Merriam Webster's not list words on the basis that they're already explained on Wiktionary? If somebody comes to look up something from the Breeniverse, LGPedia is the primary destination - not the forums.
2. HOOBS was recently mentioned on Inside LG15 - even if you argue being promoted on the official blog is not notable (wtf?), a mention on the official blog probably led to dozens of users trying to look it up on the pedia, so we should at least have a page for the moment, until the buzz dies down.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:05, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, I don't have a problem with Tier 2ing it, I just figured 1 would be easier, since we'll need a decent amount of information for 2, and there are TONS of accounts associated with it. Do with it what you will. - Shiori 21:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Tier 2 is fine with me too :) --Pheon 21:13, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

k, I'll add it to the preliminary list under 2 then.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 22:54, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Community Video Portal

Since the issue of the number and frequency of edits has been put on the table as a criteria of notability perhaps it is time to revisit the topic of a "Community Video Portal". I realise that this was taken off the table early on by Zoey and i was quite willing to go along with that. However, things have changed and clearly a community video portal is a much higher priority than the revamp because of the criteria being used in that process. We need the Creators to show that they fully embrace community videos and what better way to do that than put community videos on the LGPedia map? Yes, I am talking about adding a community video portal to the left hand menu. The best place for it would be under the search box since adding it above the search box would force it down too far. I think it is time to start a full discussion of the importance of such a portal and it should become part of the implementation plan for the revamp so that community videos have fair and equal exposure.--modelmotion 13:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Model, if you remember correctly, Zoey did say this quite early on --

Let me just clarify, this discussion {the Fanfic Revamp} is JUST for fanfic SERIES and how they will be treated on the pedia. Any discussion about what to do about it after the fact is arbitrary at this point, as creating a portal cannot happen unless we have some sort of focus. If we want to create a portal, or any other means of featuring the fanfic AFTER THE FACT, that discussion should take place after the fact. So let's please not discuss that at this time.

Thanks. --Zoey 18:47, 21 December 2007 (CST)

So, yeah . . . as much as this discussion may be relevant at a future date, there's just too much going on right now with the current discussions, and I fear all this is going to do is make the whole Revamp even more difficult and argumentative. --Pheon 15:10, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Like, I said, because of the tone and nature of the discussion above things have changed.--modelmotion 15:12, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Not at all. You'd just like it to have changed.

The Revamp is related to the structure and maintenance of UGC pages on LGPedia.

A community video portal is related to the promotional embrace of UGC pages on LGPedia.

These are different things and Zoey has made very clear that a community portal will not be decided on as part of this topic.

Period.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:18, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

There's no denying that the tone and nature has changed, but that doesn't mean we should throw in another giant discussion right in. Seriously, I'm not totally sure what's up with everyone this past week or so, but I do think they best thing to do right now would for everyone to take a DEEP breath and try and change the tone to something more civil. Than maybe we can get more productive about the whole darn thing. --Pheon 15:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I totally agree. However if the current tone persists and the same arguments keep being made then the subject of a Community Video Portal needs to be on the table because that is the only fair way to give full exposure to the community videos. Clearly it would have been better to have the revamp first but if things are going to be cut on the basis of the number of current edits etc then its a different ball game. What we need is respect for the historical record. Look at it as a preservation movement if you will. As with any history there are clearly things that should be saved but there are always those who want to sweep away the past in favor of something shiny and new. That is often a big mistake.--modelmotion 15:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

No one here is deliberating wiping out all traces of past series from the Pedia. We're merely putting the inforation we DO have into a better organized system (at least that was what we originally set out to do, and I do think it's been "trying" to accomplish that). But like I posted earler, this is just another ballpark of discussions that's only going to lead to more bickering right now, especially since Zoey told all of us - not. right. now. Later, sure, but not right now. --Pheon 15:37, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Like I told you above, like you continuously ignore, there is no "historical record" - just incomplete pages no one cared for for 6 to 11 months. So why don't you stop with the charade and admit this was the reason for your joining of the discussion all along? Or do you want to insist it's a coincidence you kept coming back with insulting answers, trying to paint me as an evil dictator, not bringing a single factual argument, only to then post that it was necessary due to a change of "tone and nature" of the discussion to add a Community Portal?

I'm just glad you finally came out and said what you wanted...maybe those of us actually interested in this discussion can go back to work now.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:50, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

And you can lament as much as you want, neither you, nor me, nor Pheon stand above Zoey's orders.

I agreed with the original goal and I was willing to wait on the portal on that basis. However things have not been going well and that is why this issue was raised. Again, my primary concern is that we do not loose any of the important historical record. That would include transcripts of some series that may not in the future have transcripts. If you are going to have surgery you need to have faith the doctor fully understands the anatomy of the patient. I am not convinced this is the case with this revamp and that is the central problem. If I see a firm commitment to the preservation of the historical record I would be quite willing to go along with the revamp but at the current time that is not the case and that is why I am raising the need for a community video portal.--modelmotion 15:56, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Model, do you really think discussing a portal is actually going to guarentee "old" videos will keep their transcripts? It was a heap of a discussion to even make the KM portal, a CANON portal, last summer, and you really want to bring up the possibily of trying to make a portal dedicated to every fan-made? It's something we totally haven't done before and to serious discuss all the little quirks about potentially creating a new portal . . . there's no way we can do justice to it. Honestly, it's a whole different field. --Pheon 16:01, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

So far, you failed to convey why specific transcripts are "important historical record"s. Even Immo said about The Coalition: "I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. ".

You want the "important historical record"s saved? You want transcript pages? Fine. Then quit insisting the revamp sucks, stop trying paint me as the root of all evil, and actually make a factual, logically coherent post that explains why certain series are historically so significant that it is an absolute must for the community to have transcripts of their episodes available.

You keep insisting we have no clue of UGC, and keep implying you do. Fine. Prove it. Use that knowledge you have to make a case. A provable case. Show us numbers. References. Show us where we are wrong. Show us why Immo is wrong, in your opinion. Argue on a factual basis. Within the revamp discussion. For what you want.

Instead of just randomly claiming we're all evil and just want to kill over and over again.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:08, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I did not say that Immo was wrong. In fact in terms of the Coalition he is a leading expert and his opinion and advice should totally be respected and followed. I have suggested workable short term solutions and I have even implemented some of them although any actions on my part were without his knowledge, consent or approval so I would totally defer to his knowledge of the Coalition.--modelmotion 16:38, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

In terms of the portal it is really not that difficult. We already have the core material on one page [1]. All we would need is the links on the left and menu and it could go from there. Its a wiki, things evolve and improve if you create the correct structure.--modelmotion 16:42, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Model, I'd hardly call that a portal, it would be better refered to as a list. but anyways, this is going to get off-topic pretty soon - just reading the past posts has convinced me enough that if this discussion continues, it's only going to get further off-topic and more argumentative. Renegade, Model, and everyone else who gives a darn about this Revamp - I love you guys, so I really suggest we all return to discussing the Revamp in the other active discussions. Any discussion regarding a Community Portal is simply premature at this time. End of Discussion. --Pheon 16:49, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I said we had the core of a portal meaning that it has all the links. Obviously it would have to be restructured to produce an effective portal but that could be done in a few hours.--modelmotion 16:53, 21 March 2008 (CDT)